I may be inclined to agree with you, A4s. but I can't since the only women I see (realistically, about 60-70%) are in maternity uniform... what? Who said that?
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The downside of women serving alongside men in fighting ships, subs, squadrons, etc.
- Thread starter HeyJoe
- Start date
I may be inclined to agree with you, A4s. but I can't since the only women I see (realistically, about 60-70%) are in maternity uniform... what? Who said that?
On my boat, they had a SOTS team. They'd go out at night and try to bust those trying to consummate relationships underway. SOTS = Sex On The Ship. Now that's INTRUSIVE leadership. Bottom line is that the CO is ultimately responsible for what goes on with/in/on the ship.
-ea6bflyr
-ea6bflyr
Well, it WAS about women in the military, until they got here. Now, it IS a leadership issue, since they'll be here for the foreseeable future.
"Here's your $#!7 sandwich figure out how to eat it."
(As misogynistic as I sound, I know we have a lot of women doing great things in the military and I don't mean to impugn them.)
This was my exact sentiment when President Obama released his new Afghan strategy. He takes 4 months to come up with it, but wants the military to implement it within 6 months of it's release.
We (as a military) are way too effective. Maybe the people in charge ought to drag their feet a little on the topic du jour to give the civilians in charge of us a sense of caution as well as urgency when it comes to figuring out what they want from us.
"Sh!t sandwich, loaded...if you please!"
I could not agree more. It's really all semantics at this point because the real elephant in the room is how politicians, voters, and the generic whiny-asses out there are all bent out of shape because "we're" not female or gay/lesbian (for that matter) friendly enough.
I wish people would get it through their heads that there are bigger logistical issues than whether "we" like you or not. Some people need to learn that they're best served to just stay the hell out the way, enjoy their freedom, and let "us" do our jobs.
Clux4
Banned
So who should really be held accountable for the "transgressions" of the few?
Because it is one thing to hold a leader morally accountable and it is another to hold him accountable for the unit's failure in meeting mission.
I would assume that is a CO followed all the rules, training, SOP, whatever, then those folks who are fucking around should be held accountable. That's the point really, folks are going to mess around no matter what.
I always say "Familiarity breeds contempt...and lust". It's not unique to ships or remote locations. It happens in and out of the military regardless of location. Leadership can forestall widespread outbreaks, but can be powerless to inoculate against sexual immaturity and hormones that overpowerful sense of duty or ethics. It's like putting certain chemicals in a jar....sometimes they're going to react and maybe not the way you want.
If the decision to include females in combat units was reviewed as a simple cost/benefit analysis there is no doubt that women would not be allowed in these units. The results would not even be close.
I have come across/worked with one female in my 10 years of active duty time that was a net positive to the unit. She was my department head, an outstanding officer/leader/aviator/manager you name it. She was also married to a civilian, and her husband fit in really well at all of the social functions (and the importance of this should not be understated).
I had 3 female rescue swimmers in the AW shop. 2 of them were below average AW's but the effort was there and none of them were dirt bags. The one that was actually good enough to be considered "average" from a performance level was normally considered a super star simply because she was female. She got bonus points for possessing a vagina, and being better than her (female) peers. She was also single, had a boyfriend in the AW shop (although they made a good effort to stay professional on the boat) but the other issues that it caused made her presence there a net negative. All three would have been a much bigger asset to a Coast Guard unit than they were to us.
The root problem is exactly what PropAddict said. We were handing a shit sandwich, but we also fucked up the implementation process. There are multiple areas where Navy leadership had opportunities to prevent the problems that we have now, and we missed our chance. We lowered standards, made exceptions, have tolerated sub-par performance, and often failed to enforce regulations for fear of getting the "sexism" card played on us. Those are just the somewhat forgivable mistakes. It's not like officers have never dipped the pen in company ink before. If helo CO would have told training commands "stop sending me female AW's who can't meet physical standards for CSAR aircrew", that would have gotten someone's attention. If a carrier skipper lost 50 people because of a heroine problem on his ship, he would probably get relieved. Nobody seems to notice that when a carrier deploys, they leave at least that number of females at our FRS "maternity wards". Then they COD off dozens more over the course of deployment because they get knocked up on cruise.
I have come across/worked with one female in my 10 years of active duty time that was a net positive to the unit. She was my department head, an outstanding officer/leader/aviator/manager you name it. She was also married to a civilian, and her husband fit in really well at all of the social functions (and the importance of this should not be understated).
I had 3 female rescue swimmers in the AW shop. 2 of them were below average AW's but the effort was there and none of them were dirt bags. The one that was actually good enough to be considered "average" from a performance level was normally considered a super star simply because she was female. She got bonus points for possessing a vagina, and being better than her (female) peers. She was also single, had a boyfriend in the AW shop (although they made a good effort to stay professional on the boat) but the other issues that it caused made her presence there a net negative. All three would have been a much bigger asset to a Coast Guard unit than they were to us.
The root problem is exactly what PropAddict said. We were handing a shit sandwich, but we also fucked up the implementation process. There are multiple areas where Navy leadership had opportunities to prevent the problems that we have now, and we missed our chance. We lowered standards, made exceptions, have tolerated sub-par performance, and often failed to enforce regulations for fear of getting the "sexism" card played on us. Those are just the somewhat forgivable mistakes. It's not like officers have never dipped the pen in company ink before. If helo CO would have told training commands "stop sending me female AW's who can't meet physical standards for CSAR aircrew", that would have gotten someone's attention. If a carrier skipper lost 50 people because of a heroine problem on his ship, he would probably get relieved. Nobody seems to notice that when a carrier deploys, they leave at least that number of females at our FRS "maternity wards". Then they COD off dozens more over the course of deployment because they get knocked up on cruise.
A lot of females I've seen in the military flaunt the fact that they are female and can pretty much have the choice of whatever flavor of sausage they desire. I saw that more often when I was enlisted than now, but instincts are instincts, sometimes leading people to say damn ethics, morals, and whatever else. No amount of leadership at that point is going to stop it.
CalamityJean
I know which way the wind shines!
That is a moral/self esteem/discipline failure on the part of those female sailors. Are they unique? Hardly. It's easy to hand the blame off to the girls who come back knocked up on deployment, but the sperm in their gullet didn't get there by itself.
Instincts be damned. People have the instinct to run when bullets start flying. Overcoming that instinct is called courage. Overcoming the "instinct" to sleep on watch is called doing your duty. Overcoming the "instinct" to procreate is called moral fortitude. We aren't fucking animals. I think if fraternization was as big a career ender for the enlisted as it is for Officers, it would occur a lot less. And it would allow the Navy to weed out the weak minded/weak willed individuals who do it.
"sperm in gullet" does not usually cause pregnancy.
I guess they don't teach sex ed in OH-IO. :icon_tong
If that is true, I pass no judgement it's validity, it simply means that we must redouble our efforts to maintain good order and discipline. No one ever said it would be easy, but rather, the cold hard fact of reality is upon us and we must deal with it.
A very sad situation where the "ringleaders" of the breakdown in discipline seemed to be hiding in the CPO mess. Back in the day we found "several" Chiefs with booze in their lockers. the mess took care of the problem. The "offenders" were never "exposed" but we had a "public pouring of the booze" over the side with the CO/XO in attendance. The word was out and the problem solved, quickly, effectively. Everyone knew the rules, followed the rules.
I see myself as able to read between the lines in the story, coupled with what I know about good order and discipline. I would bet, substantially, that the problem was long festering, that the CoC knew of the problem but turned a blind eye, ignored it, or took half hearted measures to eliminate the serious breakdown in discipline. That is what cost them their careers. It was not a situation where the CO could not be everywhere at once, rather he did not deal with the problem directly and with authority. That, IMHO is the failing here. What did he know, when did he know it.
Discipline does not comport to the "big bang" theory, rather the ldisentigration of good order and discipline creeps into a organization, bit by bit. We must be ever vigiliant and be prepared to act at any time to identify and correct problems of discipline. It is our sworn duty.:icon_rage:icon_rage