TH-57 fleet grounding

[PropStop]

Question from a non-helo guy. I do understand the basics of how helos fly, but what is a "Cut Gun"?

Do you have enough energy in the blades with an engine failure so close to the deck that you can pull pitch and soften the landing? Or is that what a "Cut Gun" is? I understand that if you have altitude or airspeed that you can auto in - but it seems like if you're low and slow you're screwed.

Of course, I really don't know - so please enlighten me!

 

[Flying Low]

Cut gun is an engine failure in a hover. There is enough NR (% of the rotors turning) to cushion the landing. We practice these at 5ft.

 

[Flying Low]

So have they determined what, exactly, is causing the engines to fail? Or do they have any ideas? Aside from the fact that the aircraft involved have Nf governors from the new manufacturer.

Some type of bearing in the NF governor itself is failing. All the down aircraft either have the new Governor or have some new parts (i.e bearing) in a old governor.

 

[NozeMan]

what is a "Cut Gun"?

Do you have enough energy in the blades with an engine failure so close to the deck that you can pull pitch and soften the landing? Or is that what a "Cut Gun" is? I understand that if you have altitude or airspeed that you can auto in - but it seems like if you're low and slow you're screwed.

Of course, I really don't know - so please enlighten me!

You answered your own question! When the IP rolls the twist grip to flight idle while in a hover/hover taxi, we recover by using the remaining inertia in the rotor. The rotor will still provide enough lift as the RPM decays to soften the landing. It's almost easier to have a soft landing from a cut gun than a vertical landing!

 

[Ektar]

So, that explains why I haven't seen any helos flying out of South Field for the last couple of days....

I guess this is one time I'm glad I'm still flying the T-34!

 

[FLYTPAY]

Looks like the jet pipeline just got shorter than the helo pipeline!

 

[xj220]

So, that explains why I haven't seen any helos flying out of South Field for the last couple of days....

I guess this is one time I'm glad I'm still flying the T-34!

Not if you were part of the great T-34C downing in Las Cruces. The EPLs froze overnight and 7 of the 24 planes there worked. I was lucky enough to be one of the form guys with a good plane to go out that morning. Eventually, they got the frozen EPLs to be an upgripe an the planes continued to fly.

 

[S.O.B.]

Quick question. Do you solo as a SNA in helo's?

Surely their not flying solos at this point? Does HX-21 test 57s? If so who would do the OT?

 

[Flying Low]

Surely their not flying solos at this point? Does HX-21 test 57s? If so who would do the OT?

Solo's are still flying, but mainly in the bravo. However I can only speak for 28. I don't know what 8/18 are considering as their priority. We have 4 studs that just need their INST check and then they can solo. After those 4 I doubt we will solo anyone else in the Charlie. Those 2 aircraft will be for the next 2 winging classes. Which limits the flights to Forms and NVG's with a SAR and Boat hop thrown in somewhere.

 

[NozeMan]

Solo's are still flying, but mainly in the bravo. However I can only speak for 28. I don't know what 8/18 are considering as their priority. We have 4 studs that just need their INST check and then they can solo. After those 4 I doubt we will solo anyone else in the Charlie. Those 2 aircraft will be for the next 2 winging classes. Which limits the flights to Forms and NVG's with a SAR and Boat hop thrown in somewhere.

Looks like my winging class is getting pushed back. There goes the pipe dream of being a winged ensign!

 

[phrogpilot73]

After reading a number of articles in trade magazines debating the need to practice full autos (a lot of people are arguing that more mishaps occur during a practice full auto), I think this is definitive proof that it's necessary.

 

[scoober78]

After reading a number of articles in trade magazines debating the need to practice full autos (a lot of people are arguing that more mishaps occur during a practice full auto), I think this is definitive proof that it's necessary.

That first part may be true, but I wonder if severity is considered. Seems to me that I'd trade two (or many more) class Charlie's from x feet for a single class A reduction....maybe this isn't the case, it just seems like it might be.

What the hell do I know...I have four engines...

 

[phrogpilot73]

That first part may be true, but I wonder if severity is considered. Seems to me that I'd trade two (or many more) class Charlie's from x feet for a single class A reduction....maybe this isn't the case, it just seems like it might be.

For what it's worth, it was mostly the civilian guys debating whether or not they should still be practicing full autos. Most military guys argue that the training is invaluable. Most of the bigger fleet helos, full autos are a no-no. I wonder if this will sway the argument to the other side of the spectrum, since WAY more civilian guys operate the 206 than does the military.

If I remember correctly though, it's almost impossible to have a Class A in the Bravo, unless people are killed... I think it's tough in the Charlie as well. Pretty much involves turning the helo into tiny pieces.

What the hell do I know...I have four engines...

All of us fleet guys had at least two!

 

[hscs]

^ Funny thing is that there was a discussion of reducing emphasis on autos @ HSC-3: The reason -- too many students were downing flights because of bad autos that time to train took a hit.

My 2 cents -- you still need to practice autos a la HS-2 tail drive a few months ago...

 

[insanebikerboy]

If I remember correctly though, it's almost impossible to have a Class A in the Bravo, unless people are killed... I think it's tough in the Charlie as well.

You can't have a class A based on $$, a Charlie is just under 1 million, but there is the loss of aircraft part of the req's, so a total loss of an Bravo or Charlie will do it.

"Solo's" are flow with another student as an observer. The Pilot at the controls should not remove his hands from the controls. The other pilot tunes radios and such.

On the Inav/Vnav solos, controls are passed all the time. The only limitation was no passing the controls during the Bravo solo.

That first part may be true, but I wonder if severity is considered. Seems to me that I'd trade two (or many more) class Charlie's from x feet for a single class A reduction....maybe this isn't the case, it just seems like it might be.

The 206 is fairly cheap to repair, and if all that happens is spread skids it's actually really cheap (comparatively, of course). Something worse like drive train contact with transmission mounts doesn't even cause it to get near a Charlie level mishap.

Fwiw, the full auto portion of flight school was my most favorite and important part of it. Being able to land a helo with the engine not providing any power at all really taught me how to control it well. It's a shame we can't do them in the fleet birds, but I'd imagine a hard landing in a 60 could really cost some $$$.