Survey says...?

[MojoLives]

How do you define a "flight"?

Our SOP states that "Instructors are limited to four man-ups and three flights per day." but it does not SPECIFICALLY define what constitutes a flight. The result has been some recent scheduling of IPs to fly an X (student sortie), hot seat the student for another student, and then fly the same X again - commonly OCF or CQ events. Not unusual, but the contention is that this counts as ONE (1) FLIGHT, so the IP can then be scheduled for the same series again or for (2) more completely unrelated flights (such as ACM or TACF).

Anyone have any inputs?

 

[Pugs]

What's 3710 say? IMO the gear leaves the ground you have a flight.

 

[FlyBoyd]

Since you SOP is written by your Skipper, he can define it any way he wants as long as it doesn't violate a higher directive. As I remember for single piloted ops, if you don't exceed 6.5 instructional in one day you are good by 3710.

 

[MojoLives]

3710 discusses max & min flight time, but I have not found anything that addresses the definition of a flight. Maybe someone can school me up?

I tend to agree with you and would submit that if you are completing a yellow-sheet/navflir, then that is an individual flight -- regardless of how many hot-pits or hot-seats you have completed. For example: (1) man-up with a fly - pit - fly - pit - fly = (3) flights since you must complete (3) navflirs.

 

[MojoLives]

Concur, Boyd. It's the Wing's SOP - therefore waiverable. Just thought I'd throw it out here for discussion.

 

[FlyBoyd]

Mojo,

It would pretty easy to sell the fact the CNATRA 1500 and MCGs define an event for a student and that same definition applies to IPs as well. One "X" is an event for a stud. They have a defined max based on that. Connect the dots and an x could be a flight.

On a side note if it is a wing thing ask the TW OPSO to define it for you. If your CO didn't write it he may be misinterpreting it. Your call to be the squeaky wheeel or not.

Wing 2?

 

[Godspeed]

Hmm... I think it's from when the wheels lift off to when they make the "Skuuuurt skurrrt" noise upon landing.

I remember for CQ being told to log it all as one flight (departure from Cecil, to back to Cecil several hours later), even though it involved a good amount of time sitting on the deck during the helo breaks and refueling...

 

[Pags]

Per OPNAV 3710:

For recording and reporting purposes, a flight
begins when the aircraft first moves forward
on its takeoff run or takes off vertically from
rest at any point of support and ends after
airborne flight when the aircraft is on the
surface and either:
(1) The engines are stopped or the aircraft has
been on the surface for 5 minutes, whichever
comes first
(2) A change is made in the pilot in command

Note:
Flight time on repetitive evolutions such as
field carrier landing practice (FCLP), passenger/
cargo stops, and carrier qualifications
shall be logged from the time the
aircraft takes off until the aircraft has been on
the surface for 5 minutes after each evolution
flown (i.e., three sorties of 55 minutes actual
air time interspersed with two 20-minute
ground periods for refueling or passenger/
cargo transfer will be logged as 3.0 hours of
flight time).

 

[A4sForever]

Takeoff to landing will suffice in most cases ... I think that's what 3710 encompasses ... BUT: sometimes merely manning up and starting could be considered a 'flight' ... ANYTIME the engine is running is considered 'flight time' for your logbook ... or at least good enough to count as an 'event' for SKED purposes ... and it's good enough for sayin' -- "THAT'S ENOUGH OF THIS SHIT ... LET'S GO TO THE CLUB".

Think about it:

What if you pre-flight ... man up ... start up ... mebbe even taxi ... and shut down ... post flight ... 3 times or more ...

You're beat. That's enough for one day. God doesn't WANT you to go fly this day ...

 

[MojoLives]

PAGS - thanks for the 3710 info....I thought that applied more to helo's, but not a stretch to apply it to other airframes.

A-4 - the only time we count time in the cockpit...with engines running....as flight time is at the boat. Otherwise, it's supposed to be takeoff to landing, plus a .1 for taxi time. We do have a man-up limit as well, to prevent people who don't seem to realize when you just aren't meant to fly that day (I like the 3 strikes rule myself).

Thanks to all for the great input - it's good to hear opinions from outside my little sphere. It doesn't happen often, but it's often enough that I want to protect my guys from ending up in an undefendable position should something crazy happen.

Bottom line is that they are the man's jets...and if the man says fly, we go fly.

 

[MIDNJAC]

From a student's perspective, I downed a fam checkride after manning up 3 times in 100+ degree summer heat + humidity (also pushing the outer limits of crew rest for the previous 3 consecutive days). That probably wasn't the only factor involved, but I don't think being exhausted helped anything. The rules say we (studs) can do it, but I think I should have been a little bit more honest with myself and my IP when he asked me (following unstrapping from jet #2) if I was good to go. Not exactly what you were asking, but I figured I'd throw that out there

 

[MojoLives]

Thanks for the new perspective, Mid.... had a similar incident with a couple of completers a few weeks ago in 3-plane. They made it fine, but it was a bit tough on them. Based on the outcome, I elected to cnx the next pair of completers early -- around 9 hours of slide time -- rather than have them slide for 11 hours and then try to perform on a 3-plane solo. I'm sure they could've handled it, but it's better have them at 100% and actually LEARN something from the flight as opposed to just getting it complete and getting out the door.

 

[Pags]

PAGS - thanks for the 3710 info....I thought that applied more to helo's, but not a stretch to apply it to other airframes.

I omitted the part that applies to helos about "takeoff power being applied" or whatever it is, just gave the general stuff.

 

[insanebikerboy]

ANYTIME the engine is running is considered 'flight time' for your logbook ... or at least good enough to count as an 'event' for SKED purposes ...

I think that's the fine line between civ and military flight time, as per the 3710 rule of actually leaving the deck vice starting up, taxiing, etc, which is countable in a civ book.

 

[zippy]

Thanks for the new perspective, Mid.... had a similar incident with a couple of completers a few weeks ago in 3-plane. They made it fine, but it was a bit tough on them. Based on the outcome, I elected to cnx the next pair of completers early -- around 9 hours of slide time -- rather than have them slide for 11 hours and then try to perform on a 3-plane solo. I'm sure they could've handled it, but it's better have them at 100% and actually LEARN something from the flight as opposed to just getting it complete and getting out the door.

Crew fatigue is the reason it is commonly accepted practice to CANX Training flights and Dedicated Field Work flights after 5 hours of preflight time on the P-3 side of the house. The idea is that by that point fatigue is starting to set in for both the Instructor and the upgrading pilot and it is only going to get worse after another 5 hours of landings and simulated in flight emergencies.

Many squadrons have it built into their stan notes to coordinate with OPS if the preflight exceeds 5 hours regardless of the mission. There have only been a few occasions where I've been on a bounce flight that pushed past the 5 hour preflight point.

Mission flights are different, and while we still talk to OPS and see how the crew is feeling its not uncommon to continue pressing until you get off deck, will not be able to get off deck and complete your mission without exceeding an 18 hour crew day or run out of additional planes to preflight...