Stupid Questions about Naval Aviation (Part 3)

[Gatordev]

Something I didn't understand while in the Navy was that getting the random IFR pickup isn't a thing on the civilian side. The fact TRACON does that for the military is a huge professional courtesy.

I've also consistently had SOCAL give me random approaches at some other place than what I filed to (like shooting over to Montgomery for ILSs after shooting PARs at NKX) when I had a Navy call sign, but outright tell me no when trying to shoot more than one approach at the place I filed to in a civilian plane. All of this certainly spoils military aviators and can lead to not having a plan ahead of time, as you guys are saying.

and get my IMC clearance with LA Center and they would positively push me with my request

When I fly IFR now, I do a lot of filed IFR pickups in the air. Something I didn't realize until doing this is that your strip isn't in everyone's system at the same time, so if your filed departure point is in one TRACON's area, but you've crossed the line into another's before calling, the other TRACON won't be able to pull up your strip easily. I'm not smart if they can go in and search other systems (I don't think this is the case) or if they just call the other TRACON and ask that they push it, but either way, it takes time for them to get you.

When I've had this happen to me, Approach (who I called) already guessed it was me calling under a different call sign (he could see my discrete company code, I was calling with my tail number and he was calling me with my program name), said he couldn't find my clearance, and then was nice enough to reach out to Center to get my strip and then pick me up. He wasn't that busy that night, and it still took 2-3 minutes of his time.

 

[Griz882]

In the Griz-O-Copter, modernly equipped with a compass and iPad, single pilot IFR is quite common…only it means “I’ll Find a Room.”

 

[DanMa1156]

Something I didn't understand while in the Navy was that getting the random IFR pickup isn't a thing on the civilian side. The fact TRACON does that for the military is a huge professional courtesy.

I've also consistently had SOCAL give me random approaches at some other place than what I filed to (like shooting over to Montgomery for ILSs after shooting PARs at NKX) when I had a Navy call sign, but outright tell me no when trying to shoot more than one approach at the place I filed to in a civilian plane. All of this certainly spoils military aviators and can lead to not having a plan ahead of time, as you guys are saying.



When I fly IFR now, I do a lot of filed IFR pickups in the air. Something I didn't realize until doing this is that your strip isn't in everyone's system at the same time, so if your filed departure point is in one TRACON's area, but you've crossed the line into another's before calling, the other TRACON won't be able to pull up your strip easily. I'm not smart if they can go in and search other systems (I don't think this is the case) or if they just call the other TRACON and ask that they push it, but either way, it takes time for them to get you.

When I've had this happen to me, Approach (who I called) already guessed it was me calling under a different call sign (he could see my discrete company code, I was calling with my tail number and he was calling me with my program name), said he couldn't find my clearance, and then was nice enough to reach out to Center to get my strip and then pick me up. He wasn't that busy that night, and it still took 2-3 minutes of his time.

These are great points, but, correct me if I'm wrong - couldn't some of his be solved via FSS? Filing in flight definitely requires you to read the room (Oh, Tallahassee approach has nothing going on? Sure I'll ask them... vs. LA Center is slammed, let's filed with LA Radio), but I've used FSS to put in a flight plan to then activate with approach. I've always assumed that FSS makes the strip and sends to the correct TRACON (which is the one I'm in currently) so when I call up the nearby approach or center, it's literally a matter of activating, giving me a direction and an altitude to fly as opposed to the laborious radio comms back and forth of filing in flight clogging things up for everyone else.

 

[JTS11]

As a military aviator, if you don't get what you want from whoever you're talking to, accuse that GS-chucklehead of being a Communist. They don't know that you're just an O-3 chucklehead. You'll win.😄

 

[ChuckMK23]

These are great points, but, correct me if I'm wrong - couldn't some of his be solved via FSS? Filing in flight definitely requires you to read the room (Oh, Tallahassee approach has nothing going on? Sure I'll ask them... vs. LA Center is slammed, let's filed with LA Radio), but I've used FSS to put in a flight plan to then activate with approach. I've always assumed that FSS makes the strip and sends to the correct TRACON (which is the one I'm in currently) so when I call up the nearby approach or center, it's literally a matter of activating, giving me a direction and an altitude to fly as opposed to the laborious radio comms back and forth of filing in flight clogging things up for everyone else.

Foreflight (with LTE/5G enabled iPad) files in flight just fine - ICAO or DD1801. Works great for filing "in-flight". From what I have seen, FSS technicians are all contractors of Leidos and minimally trained to a script. Voice communications with FSS are a crap shoot at best. Put Foreflight on your personal iPhone (Military Flight Bag edition permits a tablet a phone license) - IMHO filing a minimum IFR flight plan from the air at helo altitudes is very doable.

 

[Brett327]

I guess I don’t understand what the issue is with picking up a random IFR clearance from any enroute ATC. I’ve never had any issues or pushback from Center or Approach controllers when doing so. You don’t even need to follow the DRAFT format. Present posit direct desired destination, throw in an altitude, and off you go. Is this not most people’s experience?

 

[DanMa1156]

All your points are solid, in general, and WRT the specifics of SOCAL helo ops.

The one hedge from an ops perspective we did was to plan a fuel hit at Imperial County (two boxes of Papa Johns) at around 2300, so at least you had the fuel to go missed at NKX and head east to El Centro if you couldn't get in.

Yup, the most dangerous thing helo dudes do is push marginal VFR conditions, without a plan.

I was in the back, not up ICS, on a return trip to NKX from Creech. 2 smart dudes up front. They're coming in from Temecula on the VFR I-15 route, when the marine layer overtakes the field, and it goes IFR. They pick up a PAR and break out at or below mins with a dramatic quickstep as they get the runway environment in sight. As we're taxiing in I unbuckle and head up to the jumpseat, and I see all 3 fuel low lights on (we got 3 tanks for 3 engines)

After shutdown, we had a frank discussion.

Going to Imperial got "banned" by order of the Commodore while I was a JO. I suspect this has changed, but the TLDR back then was "no one is going to El Centro, so you can't go to Imperial anymore either." I went once my entire JO tour when my OPS O I was flying with said "hey, we all agree we are below mins, whoops, and need fuel and couldn't possibly make it to El Centro, right?" "Uhhhh yeaaaaaaaahhhh!!!!"


With that said, what ended up happening was most flights were planned and expected to return to KNZY without a fuel hit at El Centro, so everyone came in just a bit above mins. Hit weather and didn't plan for it? You better hope you break out on that PAR.

 

[DanMa1156]

Foreflight (with LTE/5G enabled iPad) files in flight just fine - ICAO or DD1801. Works great for filing "in-flight". From what I have seen, FSS technicians are all contractors of Leidos and minimally trained to a script. Voice communications with FSS are a crap shoot at best. Put Foreflight on your personal iPhone (Military Flight Bag edition permits a tablet a phone license) - IMHO filing a minimum IFR flight plan from the air at helo altitudes is very doable.

In my last tour, our squadron had Ipads with Foreflight, but GPS only, no ability to file IIRC. I know I could pay for it myself, but I haven't had issue with FSS either.

 

[Roger_Waveoff]

Going to Imperial got "banned" by order of the Commodore while I was a JO. I suspect this has changed, but the TLDR back then was "no one is going to El Centro, so you can't go to Imperial anymore either." I went once my entire JO tour when my OPS O I was flying with said "hey, we all agree we are below mins, whoops, and need fuel and couldn't possibly make it to El Centro, right?" "Uhhhh yeaaaaaaaahhhh!!!!"

With that said, what ended up happening was most flights were planned and expected to return to KNZY without a fuel hit at El Centro, so everyone came in just a bit above mins. Hit weather and didn't plan for it? You better hope you break out on that PAR.

In 2021, the 3d MAW CG (who is now the Assistant Commandant) banned going to Imperial, too. Basically a crew PEL'd there, and for whatever reason some folks at HQMC or on the Hill were like, "Well why didn't he just go to El Centro???" The CG, being a jet guy, didn't understand why we'd want to go someplace that does expeditious hot fuel and gives us pizza. All it took was approximately 50 ASAPs about lost training due to delays at the El Centro pits (a legitimate issue; those guys are slow as hell) for that ban to be rescinded.

 

[Odominable]

Skids have unfortunately had to suffer the NJK fuel situation for a long time now to facilitate training in the 2507s, and since we’re carrying ordnance it has to be cold gas. Nothing will sap morale more than the fuelies being delayed at 2300 when you’re trying to get home

 

[JTS11]

In 2021, the 3d MAW CG (who is now the Assistant Commandant) banned going to Imperial, too. Basically a crew PEL'd there, and for whatever reason some folks at HQMC or on the Hill were like, "Well why didn't he just go to El Centro???" The CG, being a jet guy, didn't understand why we'd want to go someplace that does expeditious hot fuel and gives us pizza. All it took was approximately 50 ASAPs about lost training due to delays at the El Centro pits (a legitimate issue; those guys are slow as hell) for that ban to be rescinded.

That Imperial ban happened in the mid-aughts as well. It was shortly lived though; either through the squadrons' cries of lost training time, or more likely, the FBO owner reaching out to his congressman 😄.

I've always wondered if the farmers who owned the fields south of El Centro ever figured out where the Papa John's boxes came from. Not that I ever condoned or approved of such things, but it seemed a lot of TFOA's occurred there.

 

[DanMa1156]

That Imperial ban happened in the mid-aughts as well. It was shortly lived though; either through the squadrons' cries of lost training time, or more likely, the FBO owner reaching out to his congressman 😄.

I've always wondered if the farmers who owned the fields south of El Centro ever figured out where the Papa John's boxes came from. Not that I ever condoned or approved of such things, but it seemed a lot of TFOA's occurred there.

LOL, that's not something I ever did, seriously haha. If word got out, I'd have been toast!

 

[Gatordev]

couldn't some of his be solved via FSS?

Yes, technically, but there are some caveats.

1) Radio reception. For my particular cases, there's no quick way to reach a FSS other than by trying to cram a cell phone under your helmet while sitting on deck. So I just file via FF while sitting in the LZ waiting for the patient to be loaded. Our scene times are pretty quick, which makes the iPad far more efficient.

2) Chuck's point about filing from the air isn't a legal option unless you're flying Part 91. 3710, Part 135, and Part 121 won't allow you to use a cellular device, so then you're back to either doing it on the ground or via a freq (that takes time).

I've always assumed that FSS makes the strip and sends to the correct TRACON (which is the one I'm in currently) so when I call up the nearby approach or center

3) It depends on where you are. That works great for San Diego because once you're across the Lagunas, you're in SOCAL's space, otherwise it's all LA. In the top half FL, the the state is bisected vertically between Center and Approach, so if you're not perfectly paralleling the ARTCC boundry, it's easy to cross over while dealing with comms at helo altitudes (since there's usually a ceiling you're trying to stay under).

I guess I don’t understand what the issue is with picking up a random IFR clearance from any enroute ATC. I’ve never had any issues or pushback from Center or Approach controllers when doing so. You don’t even need to follow the DRAFT format. Present posit direct desired destination, throw in an altitude, and off you go. Is this not most people’s experience?

Because you're given that military professional courtesy. When you try and do that with a N-number, it gets significantly harder. I'm not saying it can't be done. I had ABQ center do me a solid taking off out of Clovis, NM (motto: "Just south of nowhere.") in my plane because I screwed up my IFR Foreflight submission. That sector wasn't that busy because, well, it's Clovis.

Contrast that with Approach on a day with a CAVU forecast but then fog rolled in out of nowhere and I was trapped on top (there's more details like Tower not updating their ATIS, but it's beyond the scope of the discussion). When I checked in with my MEDEVAC prefix asking for the random (not filed) pickup, you could hear the sigh on the radio, followed by, "...and CONFIRM you're a MEDEVAC?....<sigh>" He knew who we were (again, he can see our company code), but he was put out having to punch everything in, even though he knew we were trying to recover at the airport expeditiously since we had a patient (the approach mins at the hospital were too high).

 

[JTS11]

I commanded a Marine V-22 squadron. Hereâs what I learned

Opinion: The Osprey made the entire mission during a Islamic State in Libya deployment possible, this retired lieutenant colonel writes.

www.militarytimes.com

Wut? This goes over as well as Katie Britt's response to the SOTU.

Lt. Col. Douglas Thumm (retired) is a former V-22 Osprey squadron commander. He is still a contract flight instructor with the V-22.

 

[Roger_Waveoff]

I commanded a Marine V-22 squadron. Hereâs what I learned

Opinion: The Osprey made the entire mission during a Islamic State in Libya deployment possible, this retired lieutenant colonel writes.

www.militarytimes.com

Wut? This goes over as well as Katie Britt's response to the SOTU.

Lt. Col. Douglas Thumm (retired) is a former V-22 Osprey squadron commander. He is still a contract flight instructor with the V-22.

Completely misses the point on all marks. Nobody’s disputing the V-22 brings capabilities to the table nothing else can.

The problem is 1 in 1.5 million flight hours across the enterprise, the plane literally just kills you in a matter of seconds and there’s nothing you could have done about it. For enough people, that has become unacceptable risk.