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Stand by for high seas, heavy rolls in NSW and JAGC

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
The policy is to publicly disclose DFC for COs. Whether that’s humiliating or not depends on what that particular CO has done.
A key point is that the Navy does not have to disclose the details of the DFC. Sometimes, when a CO is still 'under investigation' it's because everyone knows the allegations are true (by everyone I mean the junior enlisted ranks on the ship), but the NJP process has to catch up. Typically these are in the 'don't dip your pen in company ink' category.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
I would advise anyone who is/will be SELRES and is looking to join a highly-demanding position in a high-powered corporation to bookmark bubblehead's post.
Yep. Anybody who thinks USERRA will protect you in an open shop, I have a bridge for sale...
 

nittany03

FUBIJAR
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Many People said:
Doom, gloom, woe are all SELRES . . .
This is all highly dependent on your company and more specifically, your managers. Before anyone loses their gourd, I'm not denying that "managing out" is a thing . . . in certain companies and with certain management teams. Not all. But then again, I'm also not really sure what precisely a "highly demanding" position in a "high-powered" company is, or why it's anything to strive for. Sounds like a recruiter or a hiring manager choking their chicken all over the role description to me.

I work in technology for a Fortune 500 company that's a component of the S&P 500. My manager and I don't do "midterm counseling;" we meet every other week for about a half-hour. Not because I'm on the proverbial PIP; that's just how he keeps up with his people. If there's air to be cleared, we clear it, else we shoot the shit for 15 minutes and get back to work. At any rate, the guidance I got about SELRES land was "when you're here, you give 110 percent to this job. So I know you're going to give 110 percent to your reserve job, too. Keep me in the loop and do what you need." Sure, if I was going to MOB or do long-term orders, I'd lead-turn that and make sure I didn't screw my team. But I'm also not afraid that one day over the minimum reserve time is going to put me on the road out the door. Oh by the way, my company also has a VP two levels down from the CEO who's a Navy Intel guy that just got back from a MOB. I also know via press release that Microsoft has a senior manager who also happens to be a Marine that just pinned on Brigadier General. Chief of Navy Reserve, I'm told, is an executive at Wal-Mart.

Part of this is expectation management with your civilian job. Yes, I know there are toxic companies out there. But assuming you're not unlucky enough to end up at one, balance is a thing. If you earn the trust of the people you work for, and do expectation management like an adult and a commissioned officer, you may still get fucked, but I'd argue it's less likely. The toxic places (coughAmazoncough) PIP non-mil people out all the damned time, too. It's not an anti-SELRES thing, it's a "treating people like widgets" thing.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
It's a policy matter, as I indicated. Please see my previous comments regarding sunlight, which is generally applicable.
I think you're missing my point in the context of this thread...

Several officers have mentioned that speculation leads to cynicism, which leads to malcontent (queue some Star Wars meme about hate leading to the dark side here).

While the Navy has a policy to "disclose" DFC, they still often do so in a way that leaves a lot of details up to rumor/skepticism, and that leads to the same result as if nothing was said at all. If the intent of the policy is to increase transparency, it's failing.

In the words of Capt Kirk ... "you go right on quoting regulations..."

Which one of us is supposed to be the nuke here?
 

NavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
It's a corporate culture thing. Most companies say nothing

I've never seen anyone straight-up fired except those who were terminated "at will" (I live in an at will state). "Hey Joe, today is your last day. Thank you." I've only seen the "at will" thing done once.

What we typically do is we "manage you out" or we "package you out." There is also "eliminate the position", but I've only seen once and the person got a package (money and a iron clad NDA/agreement) on the way out.

The other thing we do is just put people on a list for the next Reduction in Force (RIF). You can terminate anyone in a RIF, literally. So, when you have a RIF, you clean house.

Managing Out
With "managing you out", managers use subterfuge to basically crush someone. They will provide little direction, will document little in email, and will often contradict themselves to suit their needs. You'll get a luke warm mid-year review, followed by a Performance Improvement Plan (PIP) that you will never be able to "pass" despite whatever your company policy states, or to whom you escalate. You will get dinged on anything you can imagine: Internet browsing, coming in late, etc. The comments in the PIP will be extremely subjective and will be able to be swayed in your manager's direction. I don't care what you think your company would or would not do but the company is there to protect the company, not the employee. At the end of your PIP you'll get put on a 30 warning, and at the end of that, you'll be straight up terminated for cause. I've seen it too many times, especially in financial services.

Defenses against this. Take contemporaneous notes of every meeting you have, including the time, date, and who was present. Email this to yourself and/or print it out. If you live in a 1-party consent state (check your state laws), record everything. Your notes will be more believable than your manager's recollection of events.

Most people just bend over, but the smart ones consult with an employment attorney who will guide them through the process of collecting evidence. At some point, if you have enough evidence, your attorney will get involved and depending on how egregious your manager is, you'll either get packaged out (below), retained in your role, or terminated for cause.

An attorney for a company I previously worked for and who specialized in employee investigations / employee wrong doing once told me, "documentation is your friend." I did cyber security and interfaced with the person who I came to befriend. The advice was sage.

Packaging Out
This is the best. You get money, get put on "garden leave" (that is, you basically stay home and do nothing until your last day). The condition of your departure from the company will be that you resigned. But, you'll also sign an NDA/agreement that also releases the company from any and all liability from any and all current or future claims against them.
I am also in an "at will" state and your post fits with a few other people I have seen leave. I did see a person go due to eliminated position and they did get a nice bit of money and didn't have to sign an NDA, we just had a packaging out as well, I do believe he did have to sign an NDA. I do believe we had a person that was trying to be managed out, each time the manager wanted to have an appointment with the employee the employee requested HR to be there to observe.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I think you're missing my point in the context of this thread...

Several officers have mentioned that speculation leads to cynicism, which leads to malcontent (queue some Star Wars meme about hate leading to the dark side here).

While the Navy has a policy to "disclose" DFC, they still often do so in a way that leaves a lot of details up to rumor/skepticism, and that leads to the same result as if nothing was said at all. If the intent of the policy is to increase transparency, it's failing.

In the words of Capt Kirk ... "you go right on quoting regulations..."

Which one of us is supposed to be the nuke here?
Yes, but I’m speaking generally... outside the context of this thread, because within the context of this thread, the person in question wasn’t officially fired.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Yes, but I’m speaking generally... outside the context of this thread, because within the context of this thread, the person in question wasn’t officially fired.
Right, and "generally" I've read a lot of Navy Times stories of "Cmdr XXX was relieved" (sidenote: still baffled why the Navy Times doesn't use formal rank abbreviations) with some flowery language of filling up a couple of pages while not really saying anything, and through networking found out what really happened to cause his relief.

I recognize that neither you nor I can change this policy from our current chairs, but we can put in our back pocket the current perception and change the policy if we ever get that far. That's all I'm saying. Or maybe like most things, when we get far enough to actually change this kind of policy we have bigger fish to fry and this goes to the bottom of a long list of nice to haves. But in its current state, I won't defend our current system as anything better than the civilian equivalent of telling someone on Friday that "thanks for your hard work, but your services are no longer needed."
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
sidenote: still baffled why the Navy Times doesn't use formal rank abbreviations
That’s not a Navy Times thing. That’s a Navy PAO thing. You’ll find it in stories in the base newspaper. It’s in their style manual. Don’t fight it, just accept it. 😀
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
They use the Chicago style manual. That's where those abbreviations come from. Most U.S. media outlets do the same thing too. You gotta admit they're plain language; the official all caps abbreviations are pretty arcane... most military jargon is pretty arcane.
 

Pags

Pope of Chili Town
pilot
It's a corporate culture thing. Most companies say nothing

I've never seen anyone straight-up fired except those who were terminated "at will" (I live in an at will state). "Hey Joe, today is your last day. Thank you." I've only seen the "at will" thing done once.

What we typically do is we "manage you out" or we "package you out." There is also "eliminate the position", but I've only seen once and the person got a package (money and a iron clad NDA/agreement) on the way out.

The other thing we do is just put people on a list for the next Reduction in Force (RIF). You can terminate anyone in a RIF, literally. So, when you have a RIF, you clean house.

Managing Out
With "managing you out", managers use subterfuge to basically crush someone. They will provide little direction, will document little in email, and will often contradict themselves to suit their needs. You'll get a luke warm mid-year review, followed by a Performance Improvement Plan (PIP) that you will never be able to "pass" despite whatever your company policy states, or to whom you escalate. You will get dinged on anything you can imagine: Internet browsing, coming in late, etc. The comments in the PIP will be extremely subjective and will be able to be swayed in your manager's direction. I don't care what you think your company would or would not do but the company is there to protect the company, not the employee. At the end of your PIP you'll get put on a 30 warning, and at the end of that, you'll be straight up terminated for cause. I've seen it too many times, especially in financial services.

Defenses against this. Take contemporaneous notes of every meeting you have, including the time, date, and who was present. Email this to yourself and/or print it out. If you live in a 1-party consent state (check your state laws), record everything. Your notes will be more believable than your manager's recollection of events.

Most people just bend over, but the smart ones consult with an employment attorney who will guide them through the process of collecting evidence. At some point, if you have enough evidence, your attorney will get involved and depending on how egregious your manager is, you'll either get packaged out (below), retained in your role, or terminated for cause.

An attorney for a company I previously worked for and who specialized in employee investigations / employee wrong doing once told me, "documentation is your friend." I did cyber security and interfaced with the person who I came to befriend. The advice was sage.

Packaging Out
This is the best. You get money, get put on "garden leave" (that is, you basically stay home and do nothing until your last day). The condition of your departure from the company will be that you resigned. But, you'll also sign an NDA/agreement that also releases the company from any and all liability from any and all current or future claims against them.
At the end of the day if your Boss wants you gone you're going to be gone. The end state of a PIP is to improve the performance of that particular billet by removing a non-performer. If you find yourself getting a PIP you better start looking for new work.
 

Pags

Pope of Chili Town
pilot
This is all highly dependent on your company and more specifically, your managers. Before anyone loses their gourd, I'm not denying that "managing out" is a thing . . . in certain companies and with certain management teams. Not all. But then again, I'm also not really sure what precisely a "highly demanding" position in a "high-powered" company is, or why it's anything to strive for. Sounds like a recruiter or a hiring manager choking their chicken all over the role description to me.

I work in technology for a Fortune 500 company that's a component of the S&P 500. My manager and I don't do "midterm counseling;" we meet every other week for about a half-hour. Not because I'm on the proverbial PIP; that's just how he keeps up with his people. If there's air to be cleared, we clear it, else we shoot the shit for 15 minutes and get back to work. At any rate, the guidance I got about SELRES land was "when you're here, you give 110 percent to this job. So I know you're going to give 110 percent to your reserve job, too. Keep me in the loop and do what you need." Sure, if I was going to MOB or do long-term orders, I'd lead-turn that and make sure I didn't screw my team. But I'm also not afraid that one day over the minimum reserve time is going to put me on the road out the door. Oh by the way, my company also has a VP two levels down from the CEO who's a Navy Intel guy that just got back from a MOB. I also know via press release that Microsoft has a senior manager who also happens to be a Marine that just pinned on Brigadier General. Chief of Navy Reserve, I'm told, is an executive at Wal-Mart.

Part of this is expectation management with your civilian job. Yes, I know there are toxic companies out there. But assuming you're not unlucky enough to end up at one, balance is a thing. If you earn the trust of the people you work for, and do expectation management like an adult and a commissioned officer, you may still get fucked, but I'd argue it's less likely. The toxic places (coughAmazoncough) PIP non-mil people out all the damned time, too. It's not an anti-SELRES thing, it's a "treating people like widgets" thing.
Being SELRES makes you different. How your individual company, manager, etc handle that difference matter. Some people and places like it and can handle the perturbations it may cause and other places see it as a risk and other places may not like nails that stick out.
 
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