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USN Solving the HT dilemma - extend life of TH-57 - move 30% of syllabus to sims

DanMa1156

Land of the rising sun. Literally. There's no DST!
pilot
Contributor
I have a contact at Bell/Textron ...
Gotcha. I wouldn't be surprised at that number. I recall $16,000 per hour being thrown around for the 60, but the person who told me may have been speaking out of their cone of knowledge. I can't imagine though that many other helicopters would be cheaper to operate per hour. Short term maintenance costs might be lower, and even in the medium term when you start replacing things that can actually be purchased off the shelf - those costs may be lower - but I can't imagine that operating a slightly bigger helicopter using more gas and requiring more maintenance on higher end parts will save costs over the Bell 206, but maybe I'm missing something in this equation. Has fuel efficiency increased significantly? I'm not sure, especially when you consider almost everything being entertained as a replacement so far is larger.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Sounds about right. Ten or twenty years ago you could find a basic 206 or 500 rental for a little north of $500/flight hour. Nowadays those are around $1000 (not Long Rangers, those are even more).

Rental rates are a pretty decent comparison for program cost, I think. A rental bird doesn't have the wear and tear of the training fleet (flight hours on training aircraft are more like dog years) but then it doesn't have the economy of scale savings of maintenance on a fleet of 100+ like the training birds do. The training birds fly all the time instead of occasionally sitting for long periods; frequently flown aircraft break less frequently per flight hour than ones that sit on the ramp or in the hangar a lot.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I recall $16,000 per hour being thrown around for the 60
I'm pretty sure that's way off, by a factor of 4-ish. If I recall correctly, though, non-contract Navy CPFH does not include the actual maintenance (SCIR) time, just parts and fuel and whatever magic sprinkles the bean counters put in there.
 

Pags

Pope of Chili Town
pilot
I'm pretty sure that's way off, by a factor of 4-ish. If I recall correctly, though, non-contract Navy CPFH does not include the actual maintenance (SCIR) time, just parts and fuel and whatever magic sprinkles the bean counters put in there.
Throwing around CPFH numbers is meaningless unless we know what's accounted for in there. Cost of gas? Cost of lunch, gas, and tolls? Cost of gas, a % of parts, and a % of manpower? For instance the CPFH for an H-60 from CNAL and from a NAVAIR squadron is very different because of whats included in that price (sailors are free while contract maintenance isn't).
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Throwing around CPFH numbers is meaningless unless we know what's accounted for in there.
True- I always thought the CNAL CPFH numbers were marginal cost, or incremental cost, or whatever you're supposed to call it if you fly one more flight hour this year. Sorta like the difference between if you fly 10,000 instead of 10,001 hours

Although the difference between 10,000 and 0 will probably won't give you 10,000 times that amount because, well because bean counter black magic.

Therefore, bean counters are evil.

Q.E.D.
 

ChuckMK23

Instructor, Flight.
pilot
Gotcha. I wouldn't be surprised at that number. I recall $16,000 per hour being thrown around for the 60, but the person who told me may have been speaking out of their cone of knowledge. I can't imagine though that many other helicopters would be cheaper to operate per hour. Short term maintenance costs might be lower, and even in the medium term when you start replacing things that can actually be purchased off the shelf - those costs may be lower - but I can't imagine that operating a slightly bigger helicopter using more gas and requiring more maintenance on higher end parts will save costs over the Bell 206, but maybe I'm missing something in this equation. Has fuel efficiency increased significantly? I'm not sure, especially when you consider almost everything being entertained as a replacement so far is larger.
Interesting side note, Bell 505 JetRanger X has a MGTW of around 3700 LBS, and burns 30 GPH - with an engine that can put out a full 475 SHP! I believe the good ol'd TH-57 MGTW was 3200 lbs, and could only put out 317 SHP at the same 30GHP!
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Interesting side note, Bell 505 JetRanger X has a MGTW of around 3700 LBS, and burns 30 GPH - with an engine that can put out a full 475 SHP! I believe the good ol'd TH-57 MGTW was 3200 lbs, and could only put out 317 SHP at the same 30GHP!
If I remember correctly, the C20 in the 206B puts out 420 HP, it is the transmission that is limited to 317 HP.
 

DanMa1156

Land of the rising sun. Literally. There's no DST!
pilot
Contributor
I'm pretty sure that's way off, by a factor of 4-ish. If I recall correctly, though, non-contract Navy CPFH does not include the actual maintenance (SCIR) time, just parts and fuel and whatever magic sprinkles the bean counters put in there.
I'm not sure what CPFH is, but the number that was quoted to me was from an FRS TO to us in indoc; like I said, I think it seems pretty steep. It purportedly included fuel and maintenance costs (maintainers' man hours + parts). Let's do a quick analysis (I'm an econ nerd): I think $16,000 per hour is pretty steep, but at 1200 pounds per hour and a $5.25 price for Jet A, that puts the 60 at nearly $1,000 per flight hour in fuel alone. What's the ratio of man hours of work per flight hour? I have no idea, but say it's 8 man hours of maintenance for each flight hour, $50 per man hour (rough stab at A&P civilian wages, but figure it's not that much off after you include our Sailors' housing and healthcare if they were only working 40 hours per week) adds another 400. I know a lot of parts are expensive, and someone in the sausage factory should know if nothing broke and they only had to replace high time components as scheduled how much those would cost, but I have a hard time thinking they would average out to $14,000 per flight hour. So, $4,000 per flight hour does seem much more plausible upon further (very) rough analysis.


If I remember correctly, the C20 in the 206B puts out 420 HP, it is the transmission that is limited to 317 HP.
This is correct. And, 30 is pretty conservative. I'd say usually, we're burning 25-27 GPH.
 

Pags

Pope of Chili Town
pilot
I'm not sure what CPFH is, but the number that was quoted to me was from an FRS TO to us in indoc; like I said, I think it seems pretty steep. It purportedly included fuel and maintenance costs (maintainers' man hours + parts). Let's do a quick analysis (I'm an econ nerd): I think $16,000 per hour is pretty steep, but at 1200 pounds per hour and a $5.25 price for Jet A, that puts the 60 at nearly $1,000 per flight hour in fuel alone. What's the ratio of man hours of work per flight hour? I have no idea, but say it's 8 man hours of maintenance for each flight hour, $50 per man hour (rough stab at A&P civilian wages, but figure it's not that much off after you include our Sailors' housing and healthcare if they were only working 40 hours per week) adds another 400. I know a lot of parts are expensive, and someone in the sausage factory should know if nothing broke and they only had to replace high time components as scheduled how much those would cost, but I have a hard time thinking they would average out to $14,000 per flight hour. So, $4,000 per flight hour does seem much more plausible upon further (very) rough analysis.



This is correct. And, 30 is pretty conservative. I'd say usually, we're burning 25-27 GPH.
16k for gas+parts+fair share maintenance contract sounds about right. Maintenance contracts are expensive.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
I'm not sure what CPFH is, but the number that was quoted to me was from an FRS TO to us in indoc; like I said, I think it seems pretty steep. It purportedly included fuel and maintenance costs (maintainers' man hours + parts). Let's do a quick analysis (I'm an econ nerd): I think $16,000 per hour is pretty steep, but at 1200 pounds per hour and a $5.25 price for Jet A, that puts the 60 at nearly $1,000 per flight hour in fuel alone. What's the ratio of man hours of work per flight hour? I have no idea, but say it's 8 man hours of maintenance for each flight hour, $50 per man hour (rough stab at A&P civilian wages, but figure it's not that much off after you include our Sailors' housing and healthcare if they were only working 40 hours per week) adds another 400. I know a lot of parts are expensive, and someone in the sausage factory should know if nothing broke and they only had to replace high time components as scheduled how much those would cost, but I have a hard time thinking they would average out to $14,000 per flight hour. So, $4,000 per flight hour does seem much more plausible upon further (very) rough analysis.



This is correct. And, 30 is pretty conservative. I'd say usually, we're burning 25-27 GPH.
$5k / flt hour for an H-60 sticks in my mind, but that is about two years old and the number fluctuates. If the community goes through a period of burning through high cost items (like we did with MGB mounting feet corrosion a while back), that number will trend up.

I think this number is published on a yearly or quarterly basis by CNAF.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
16k for gas+parts+fair share maintenance contract sounds about right. Maintenance contracts are expensive.
Not to mention the contract price =/= what the contractors are being paid...by a significant amount.

I'll ask when I go into work today what the R price is. We have our fair share of growing pains, especially now that things are starting to get more hours, but I still think it's less than hscs' number, but not by much.
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
The last time I checked (about 5 years ago), we "charge" $4000 an hour for national guard H-60 use. This is for inter-agency scenarios. I believe $10000 was the number for the Chinook.
 

Pags

Pope of Chili Town
pilot
Not to mention the contract price =/= what the contractors are being paid...by a significant amount.

I'll ask when I go into work today what the R price is. We have our fair share of growing pains, especially now that things are starting to get more hours, but I still think it's less than hscs' number, but not by much.
Well, the company is getting paid that amount. But it doesn't all go in to the paychecks of the guys doing the work. It also goes to their profit, overhead (HR, bosses, EVM, reporting, swanky corporate HQs, utility bills, etc), benefits, equipment, etc. All that is paid for by the US Gov't as part of a "Wrap rate."
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Well, the company is getting paid that amount. But it doesn't all go in to the paychecks of the guys doing the work. It also goes to their profit, overhead (HR, bosses, EVM, reporting, swanky corporate HQs, utility bills, etc), benefits, equipment, etc. All that is paid for by the US Gov't as part of a "Wrap rate."
I know, that was point.
 

jtmedli

Well-Known Member
pilot
16k for gas+parts+fair share maintenance contract sounds about right. Maintenance contracts are expensive.
Are they "expensive" compared to sailors doing the maintenance or are they legitimately more expensive to have civilians doing the work than the sailors in an hour to hour comparison? After all, I thought the reason we had contact maintenance was because it was cheaper than hiring, training, housing, etc.. our own sailors?
 
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