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Should I stay or should I go? Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love HSC.

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
On a side note, I was looking at the wiki @ChuckMK23 posted...anyone know what the letter in front of the type rating means? A, C, etc? For example C/S-70. Surely it's not Airplane and Chopper.....Coffin? There's probably a list somewhere?
If I understand you correctly...

A = attack
C = cargo
H = rescue
M = multi-mission
S = anti submarine
U = utility
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Red Five is correct. H-46s were dropping like flies - multiple engine failures (think you needed 3 x IOT become a HAC) and maintenance requirements were thru the roof. This was also a part of the post-Desert Storm RIF.

The history according to me -- Originally, there wasn't that much thought to be spending time in the dirt. Of the 8 x 60S going to CVW squadrons - only 5 x would have the kits to make them a true block 3 (and those would likely be swapped - 52 kits total if my memory serves me correctly). This was not too far off from an old HS squadron - 2-3 x HH60Hs and about 5 x crews. Those crews focused on CSAR, due to the requirement to handle CSAR for independent CSG ops. In 2001, it took 2 x squadrons to handle the CSAR requirements in the opening days of OEF. SOF ops, pre-9/11 were pretty rare - mainly HVBSS for Iraq Oil Embargo stuff and when SEALs actually deployed on ships. The CSAR crews were the ones doing the SOF stuff. The old syllabus had ~ 6 total NSW cards, 12 x CSAR cards to Level 3 - so you can see the focus.

As OEF/OIF went much longer than planned - The number of block 3 kits for the 60S increased to a buy of 200+ kits. At the same time, a group (of an HS background and jealous of the HCS-4/5 deployment), used less than gentle methods to make Expeditionary and CVW one and the same, tactically in hopes of building a larger tactically community that would be used by the larger Joint enterprise. OSD had initiated a number of 'how to fix the rotary wing shortfall across the Joint Force' studies - and there was possibly (my supposition) a thought that HSC could save the day. That group saw the NAAD detachment as the first of a series of wins.

An emphasis on CAS started ~ late 2000s when CAS was a huge focus for our fixed wing brothers - IMHO, then NSAWC and/or SEAWOLF thought that CAS should be in their bailiwick, so they began an emphasis on CAS. The 'why' has always bothered me on this - as HS had never been tasked to do CAS. In essence, a decision had been made to grow the mission set - without a 'likely payoff' to community utilization of the capability. I never liked it being jammed down my throat - my thought - I am lift for the team and have only enough firepower to defend myself / cover the team IOT give other platforms time to set geometry for an attack. Note - this was well before the M197/rocket system came online and the FAC/FIAC craziness.

Add these together with a shotgun marriage of CSAR/NSW HS mentality with the HC log/SAR mentality and a lack of performance of the minesweeping systems/LCS- and you get what has been discussed on the previous 46 pages of this thread (amongst another multitudes of threads here)..

This may be the Howard Zinn version of HS and HC becoming HSC. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves.
The way I always heard it from folks who were there was that about the same time USN H-46s were falling apart that the Army was told they had to pick between the RAH-66 and the H-60Ls they had on order. The Army chose the 66 (which worked out swell for them) and the Army asked the Navy if they were interested in some 60s for "special friend price." Turns out the price and timing was right and the Navy jumped at the opportunity to replace the 46 with a helicopter who's defining characteristic wasn't engine failures. The 60S wasn't the best maritime helicopter but it was better than nothing.

I don't know the details of how/when the helo master plan came about but I imagine the planned end state of two very similar helos was financially and logistically better than the 5+ TMSs that were around in the late 90s.

I can understand the desire of old school HS to get in the fight. They spent the 90s planning and thinking if SEALS went to war that they were going to do it from the sea and that they'd ride in a 60H. Then some wars came and SOCOM kept the SEALS and they rode in mostly SOCOM air.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Far from insisting but it seems you're right, at least to avoid something similar which is hardly possible with Romeo
If you're not paying attention to where your airplane begins and ends it doesn't matter where the tailwheel is. As others have mentioned there are reasons for the design behind both tailwheel positions but making tight turns while taxing probably aren't among them.

60Ss have flown thousands of hours to boats with minimal issues when procedures and crew input is followed.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
I think he was asking if there's a method to the madness of sikorksy's designations. For instance, I think SAC uses C for civil.
I thought he might be looking for something different.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
When it comes to landing/tail gear layout, I think you guys are focusing on the wrong thing. It's not about the type of landing, but instead the size of the deck. A Kidd class has a deck the size of 52' (according to a picture of a Resume I found online) from foul line to the most aft portion. While that wasn't a LAMPS ship, you would still want to be able to land on one with a Seahawk. Then you look at a Spruance (and by extension, the Tico) class of ships, and their deck length is pretty short. I didn't spend a ton of time on them, but as I recall, I think when you preflighted the tail, you were hanging off the edge (I can't find a Resume picture in my 30 seconds of Googling for length comparison). Having the tail wheel considerably forward just made everything else easier with the LAMPS design.

Additionally (and maybe more importantly, I'm not sure), the Seahawk tail wheel is a tire and tube design, unlike the main gear, which is just a tire and split rim. The reason for that is because of the RAST system (which the Fox was also capable of using). The H-60 was so much heavier than the H-2, so there had to be a way to move around on deck and at the time, a Tilly Bar was the only option. The RAST puts a huge side load on the tail wheel that it was not uncommon for it to look like the bead was about to come off, but the tube helps keep everything copacetic. ALSO, it was not uncommon that when straightening the aircraft, the tail bumper would be over the deck edge/scuppers in order for the geometry to work to get the whole aircraft aligned with the hangar/track. Having conventional Blackhawk tail wheel wouldn't work for that.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Correct about the old DD flight deck. With the aircraft traversed out of the hangar, everything unfolded and the aircraft spotted for takeoff, you were over the aft flight deck nets when you climbed up the tail pylon on your preflight inspection. (Looking down at the flight deck nets that were one level up from the missile deck/Sea Sparrow box launchers, later the aft VLS in the cruisers.)

It wasn't a comfortable feeling if the ship was moving around in any kind of sea state, a little scary on some mornings out there in the dark and the aircraft is slippery from a coating of "liquid A" and saltwater sea spray, but I might admit it's also kind of a thril when you're in your twenties.

The FFG-7 flight deck was certainly longer by several feet.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
When it comes to landing/tail gear layout, I think you guys are focusing on the wrong thing. It's not about the type of landing, but instead the size of the deck. A Kidd class has a deck the size of 52' (according to a picture of a Resume I found online) from foul line to the most aft portion. While that wasn't a LAMPS ship, you would still want to be able to land on one with a Seahawk. Then you look at a Spruance (and by extension, the Tico) class of ships, and their deck length is pretty short. I didn't spend a ton of time on them, but as I recall, I think when you preflighted the tail, you were hanging off the edge (I can't find a Resume picture in my 30 seconds of Googling for length comparison). Having the tail wheel considerably forward just made everything else easier with the LAMPS design.

Additionally (and maybe more importantly, I'm not sure), the Seahawk tail wheel is a tire and tube design, unlike the main gear, which is just a tire and split rim. The reason for that is because of the RAST system (which the Fox was also capable of using). The H-60 was so much heavier than the H-2, so there had to be a way to move around on deck and at the time, a Tilly Bar was the only option. The RAST puts a huge side load on the tail wheel that it was not uncommon for it to look like the bead was about to come off, but the tube helps keep everything copacetic. ALSO, it was not uncommon that when straightening the aircraft, the tail bumper would be over the deck edge/scuppers in order for the geometry to work to get the whole aircraft aligned with the hangar/track. Having conventional Blackhawk tail wheel wouldn't work for that.
True, but then again the 60S design made sense in that it wasn't meant to live onboard CRUDES, just needed to land to drop off the pony. I also think that the Kidd and Sprucans were on their way out when 60S was fielded. I never landed on either. Ticos were a tight fit but you just had to take your time, trust in your AWs, and use the force. I heard of people putting tailwheels in the nets but never personally flew with anyone who did it.
 
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