I will say with 100% assurance, as a SERE graduate in 1989 that this did not go to SERE and did not experience this. Period.
-
Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?
Go here:
Edit Account Details and Profile
SERE school (Survival, Escape, Resistance, Evasion)
- Thread starter SFgirl
- Start date
I will say with 100% assurance, as a SERE graduate in 1989 that this did not go to SERE and did not experience this. Period.
While there is some validity to the point about keeping survival schools relevant to current world affairs, I would submit that FASO does that with follow on training, usually conducted at the squadron level prior to deployment. SERE is not training us to resist Mother Russia, its more about learning and practicing the principles associated with the Code of Conduct.
This guy is a twit.
This guy is a twit.
I would tend to agree with you, but the author is somewhat renowned and his background is publicly available: Texas A&M undergrad, former Marine Corps infantry, San Diego State graduate degree. He wrote a lengthy, editorialized article a few years back titled "The Big Suck" that gained some notoriety, as well as a book, Storm on the Horizon. His record seems legitimate; I just can't understand how a service member could so entirely misunderstand and misconstrue the point of SERE training, unless in a selfish effort to gain readership.
Morris is a classic example of a philosophy that suggests: if we're only "nice" to them ... then it follows they will be "nice" to us ...
How civilized, yea-as???
You just gotta' believe what you believe -- based upon your training, experience, and core beliefs ... and then move along and do your duty ... and don't be persuaded by the propaganda shills, no matter from what source they emanate.
Another take on the subject -- you decide -- based upon training & experience whether it's "propaganda":
BLACKFIVE: SERE Torture Techniques Training Facility
How civilized, yea-as???
You just gotta' believe what you believe -- based upon your training, experience, and core beliefs ... and then move along and do your duty ... and don't be persuaded by the propaganda shills, no matter from what source they emanate.
Another take on the subject -- you decide -- based upon training & experience whether it's "propaganda":
BLACKFIVE: SERE Torture Techniques Training Facility
That explains the douchebaggery right there. He should have been used to the "hazing" from his time in collie town.
Just another day in the aggy corps of cadets:
I don't agree with the "shut the school down premise," but...his point that the school should be relevant to the current threat is completely valid. If a prison camp and captor techniques drawn from WWII, Korea, and Vietnam aren't the threat, then why is training geared toward them? Better to have the 50-lb heads think of SERE techniques suited toward evading amongst a populace of mixed and questionable allegiances, avoiding embarassing the US while avoiding getting beheaded, and escaping from non-state actors. Let's train towards that. I thought SERE school was a great training, but the MarineNet class on SERE was more relevant to today's threat, and that's sad.
"...and that's all I've got to say about that."
"...and that's all I've got to say about that."
"If water-boarding is torture, then why are we still doing it to U.S. servicemen? "
No thread jack intended, but I can help Mr. Norris here. He has it backward. Try this on. Because if it is done to our own service members in the name of training, then it isn't torture. Same same with any other techniques used at SERE. The graduates of SERE are not only undamaged psychologically or physically (except by accident) by the experience they go on to excel in careers that demand the highest degrees of mental stability. How torturous or damaging can SERE techniques be then? Frankly, if it is as Mr. Norris says and SERE guys consulted on interrogation techniques, I think it was a wise move. Use the guys that know how to do it in a manner that will not harm their own fellow military members. That puts the terrorists in good company.
No thread jack intended, but I can help Mr. Norris here. He has it backward. Try this on. Because if it is done to our own service members in the name of training, then it isn't torture. Same same with any other techniques used at SERE. The graduates of SERE are not only undamaged psychologically or physically (except by accident) by the experience they go on to excel in careers that demand the highest degrees of mental stability. How torturous or damaging can SERE techniques be then? Frankly, if it is as Mr. Norris says and SERE guys consulted on interrogation techniques, I think it was a wise move. Use the guys that know how to do it in a manner that will not harm their own fellow military members. That puts the terrorists in good company.
Well, I didn't like being strapped into a chair, blindfolded, dropped into a cold swimming pool, turned upside down, and forced to crawl out of an underwater maze while being kicked by three other people. Isn't that torture? SHouldn't the military stop making their personnel go through that in the name of "training"?
I also find it interesting that he cites what happened to CWO Durant in Somalia as an example of why SERE is no longer relevant...yet Mr Durant is now a SERE instructor. They didn't bring him aboard for eye candy, sabes?
SERE was unquestionably the most valuable training I've ever been through. [edited for OPSEC]
Nearly everyone who walked into SERE had an idea of how they'd stand up to the mental and physical smacking-around. Mostly it was big swagger, "they won't break me, I'm a Marine/SEAL/whatever". The whole point of SERE is that they will get to you somehow, eventually, in a lot less time than you thought and in ways you hadn't anticipated. Knowing that will happen, from experience, and being able to deal with it, and keeping yourself together under duress, resisting interrogation and propaganda exploitation...Christ, how is that not applicable today? This guy does know that the hajjis have kidnapped and captured Americans in the war zone, right? And Hainan Island ring any bells?
This gentleman is clueless and has totally missed the point of SERE. The only reason anyone's even listening is his background.
SERE was unquestionably the most valuable training I've ever been through. [edited for OPSEC]
Nearly everyone who walked into SERE had an idea of how they'd stand up to the mental and physical smacking-around. Mostly it was big swagger, "they won't break me, I'm a Marine/SEAL/whatever". The whole point of SERE is that they will get to you somehow, eventually, in a lot less time than you thought and in ways you hadn't anticipated. Knowing that will happen, from experience, and being able to deal with it, and keeping yourself together under duress, resisting interrogation and propaganda exploitation...Christ, how is that not applicable today? This guy does know that the hajjis have kidnapped and captured Americans in the war zone, right? And Hainan Island ring any bells?
This gentleman is clueless and has totally missed the point of SERE. The only reason anyone's even listening is his background.
This sort of stuff just chaps my ass. This guy signed a nondisclosure agreement and now apparently feels that he has free reign to violate it because he feels bad. Why not write a fricking point paper and send it to the FASO CO or to his congressman saying why he feels the training needs to br modified or abolished? Oh, that's right. It wouldn't get him any attention or press. Ass.
Why the hell can RAG studs have their careers potentially ended for misplacing a PCMCIA card or a HARM shot card, while this idiot thinks he can get away scot free because his conscience is hurt? Someone should forward this to the SERE OinC and ask if they're interested in bringing charges against this guy. Classified is classified. What. The. Hell. :icon_rage:icon_rage:icon_rage
Why the hell can RAG studs have their careers potentially ended for misplacing a PCMCIA card or a HARM shot card, while this idiot thinks he can get away scot free because his conscience is hurt? Someone should forward this to the SERE OinC and ask if they're interested in bringing charges against this guy. Classified is classified. What. The. Hell. :icon_rage:icon_rage:icon_rage
What's ironic (among other things...) is that Durant credits his SERE training for being able to get through his captivity - see his book "In the Company of Heroes" for a good read. I have my autographed copy....
And you can believe the SERE guys are well aware of this article - they "keep their feelers out" for info like this, including discussions on this forum. Their google-fu is quite strong. Decisions about what to do about articles like this are left to higher, though - unfortunately, I bet it's unlikely anything comes of it. Although it would be satisfying to see this guy nailed for violating the terms of his NDA, I think the "gain/loss calculus" for the government pursuing this issue doesn't yield a positive number.
Shack, he's now a writer and looking to make a name for himself and thereby income by writing on something he has unique knowledge of compared to other mainstream writers. The fact that everyone else is honoring their nondisclosure gives him an advantage at expense of his integrity no matter how he tries to rationalize it.
True. Just like other leaks, I guess it is a cost-benefit analysis in the end. It just flat out pisses me off that if this guy were in uniform, he'd be getting his nuts hammered flat and possibly leaving active duty with a criminal conviction, or at least no clearance. So many people walk on pins and needles WRT classified information, and reporters and politicians apparently think it's "negotiable" if a leak can advance their agenda.
Edit: We don't need posts on "what the training is like now." Those who need to know will find out. Those who don't don't need to know. We don't need to legitimize what the guy who wrote the article got right or wrong.