Sen. Schumer gas for electric car trade in program?

[SynixMan]

Caveat all of this to say that around 1% of all vehicles on the road are electric. Throw in hybrids and that number doesn't increase much. EV sales are sitting at 3% of all cars, Hybrids are getting more popular with around 5%. So we're not talking about a lot miles driven that used to be gallons bought. Just by the numbers we're looking at a 1 to 2 percent loss in total revenue from fuel taxes compared to a time there were no electric or hybrid cars on the road. So the year to year loss is probably within the margins of error.

But I do agree with you that we'll have to figure out how and where to source income to fund the roads as more and more people buy hybrid and electric cars.

I don't see a mileage tax as a viable solution, not unless you do it for every car on the road. Not with how many people register a vehicle in one place but live/work/do most of their driving in another. As it stood before I bought an EV, when I bought fuel the taxes were going to the state of Michigan (and some to the fed). But now, a mileage tax (if Florida could figure out a way to certify my mileage every time I renewed my registration) would see all of that money going to Florida. That's less than ideal. (This also applies to a lot more folks than military- college kids, snow birds, folks who live in one state but work/drive to another, and those folks who travel extensively for a living).


I can see an added tax on out-in-town EV chargers as an option. Though as Hybrid cars drive up fuel efficiency we're going to have to figure out how to get them to pay their share- as they're not plugging into public chargers and they aren't using much fuel.

Now with an EV and a Hybrid the wife and I are using 20% of the fuel we used to, and are therefore paying 20% of the road taxes that we used to for the same amount of driving. So on the micro scale my household is paying significantly less than it was 2 years ago when we both had traditional ICE vehicles.

You're overthinking it. Gas and Diesel vehicles pay by the mile already in a round-about way via the gas tax. Some pay more, some less, but in general it's a usage tax. Drive more, burn more fuel, pay more taxes. Yes, EVs are a small percentage now, but the change will happen gradually over time and I don't think we should let EV drivers continue to get free usage of roads forever. It's unsustainable.

It's literally as simple as reporting your mileage every year with registration and paying a fee based on the mileage. Maybe at some interval you have to do an odometer verification in lieu of emissions testing, but at vehicle sale you have to report it anyway under penalty of odometer fraud. Likely different rates based on axle, vehicle gross weight, etc, just like we do for registration.

The only unsolved piece is federal revenues. I don't see them standing up a whole unit to process VMT taxes. However, ensuring federal dollars continue to flow to states for roads is critical. Interstates are national assets everyone uses.

 

[ChuckMK23]

I'm a big fan of Joanna Stern from the WSJ - she just dropped her EV "test" video. Worth a watch!

 

[Random8145]

When I drive on 405 and 520 to and from Seattle I feel like I am surrounded by people trying out for NASCAR.

One thing I cannot for the life of me understand is the people who travel about ten feet behind the car in front of them at speeds of up to 60 to 70+ mph (!!!). Like what do they think is going to happen if that person up front has to slam on the brakes? Regarding cell phone usage, here in New York state, driving while on your cell phone is illegal (unless hands-free).

 

[Griz882]

Regarding cell phone usage, here in New York state, driving while on your cell phone is illegal (unless hands-free).

So is shoplifting but I’ll bet it still happens there!

 

[Random8145]

So is shoplifting but I’ll bet it still happens there!

I'm in Upstate NY which leans conservative, and the cops up here are pretty good about nailing people if driving while on their cell phone, so at least for this area, I don't think it happens too much.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Interesting story of Marine adoption of Zero electric motorcycles for MEU based Recon units:

POTD: Reconnaissance U.S. Marines With Polaris MRZR & MMX Bikes -

Reconnaissance U.S. Marines. A U.S. Marine assigned to Reconnaissance Company, 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit, holds security in a Polaris MRZR.

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[AllAmerican75]

You're overthinking it. Gas and Diesel vehicles pay by the mile already in a round-about way via the gas tax. Some pay more, some less, but in general it's a usage tax. Drive more, burn more fuel, pay more taxes. Yes, EVs are a small percentage now, but the change will happen gradually over time and I don't think we should let EV drivers continue to get free usage of roads forever. It's unsustainable.

It's literally as simple as reporting your mileage every year with registration and paying a fee based on the mileage. Maybe at some interval you have to do an odometer verification in lieu of emissions testing, but at vehicle sale you have to report it anyway under penalty of odometer fraud. Likely different rates based on axle, vehicle gross weight, etc, just like we do for registration.

The only unsolved piece is federal revenues. I don't see them standing up a whole unit to process VMT taxes. However, ensuring federal dollars continue to flow to states for roads is critical. Interstates are national assets everyone uses.

Why not just add a tax at point of sale for energy when you charge your vehicle? It would be easier and have less administrative overhead. Or are we looking for something for those 87,000 new IRS agents to do?

 

[Swanee]

Why not just add a tax at point of sale for energy when you charge your vehicle? It would be easier and have less administrative overhead. Or are we looking for something for those 87,000 new IRS agents to do?

On out in town chargers that's totally doable.
We'd need separate electrical meters for those who charge at home. We do this with water meters for folks with swimming pools and sprinkler systems in places that have sewer charges.

As it is now lots of people use a multi-purpose outlet to plug their charger in to charge their car. I don't have anything I use on that circuit other than the charger but I could plug a 220v appliance/tool there if I wanted to. Not a huge deal, but I'd have to remind myself that it's more expensive to run the table saw on that outlet if I had one.


I suppose my whole point is that it's not going to be as easy to gather tax money as it is with point of sale taxes for gasoline and road diesel.

 

[Random8145]

What I want to know is how will the grid handle tens of millions of new EVs being added? The grid seems barely able to handle the high load from summertime air conditioner use as it is. People could say, "Build out the grid..." but this is the United States, not China. Easier said than done.

 

[Brett327]

What I want to know is how will the grid handle tens of millions of new EVs being added? The grid seems barely able to handle the high load from summertime air conditioner use as it is. People could say, "Build out the grid..." but this is the United States, not China. Easier said than done.

Maybe in TX, but many places have excess capacity, like WA, which has >70% renewable energy. For you engineering nerds, check out how Grand Coulee Dam works during times of low demand. It uses the turbine generators to pump water uphill through these enormous pipes at night into Banks Lake. That process is reversed during times of high demand. Pretty fucking cool. Also, new nuke plants are now all the rage... and they're renewable. I don't think a shortage of electricity is going to be a show-stopper for EV vehicles.

 

[Swanee]

Maybe in TX, but many places have excess capacity, like WA, which has >70% renewable energy. For you engineering nerds, check out how Grand Coulee Dam works during times of low demand. It uses the turbine generators to pump water uphill through these enormous pipes at night into Banks Lake. That process is reversed during times of high demand. Pretty fucking cool. Also, new nuke plants are now all the rage... and they're renewable. I don't think a shortage of electricity is going to be a show-stopper for EV vehicles.
View attachment 38696

The capabilities of new nuke plants, even if they are exaggerated a bit, sound extremely promising.

 

[Flash]

What I want to know is how will the grid handle tens of millions of new EVs being added? The grid seems barely able to handle the high load from summertime air conditioner use as it is. People could say, "Build out the grid..." but this is the United States, not China. Easier said than done.

I think grid issues are really not an thing for most of the country, in all my time in the Northeast and Southeast it has been a rare thing to even hear the mention of them. Texas and California have their own unique issues and much of them self-inflicted, especially Texas, but an apparent benefit to the setup our 'national' electrical grid is that those issues usually aren't widespread.

 

[Swanee]

I think grid issues are really not an thing for most of the country, in all my time in the Northeast and Southeast it has been a rare thing to even hear the mention of them. Taxes and California have their own unique issues and much of them self-inflicted, especially Texas, but an apparent benefit to the setup our 'national' electrical grid is that those issues usually aren't widespread.

The power grid up here in Mi is really stable. And all along the east coast it gets schwacked with hurricanes on the regular. The threat of rolling blackouts and brownouts just aren't a thing. It's more likely that someone can screw up a local substation via vandalism than anything else.

It sounds like Texas and California brought their issues on themselves, and are not representative of the rest of the nation.

 

[Griz882]

The power grid up here in Mi is really stable. And all along the east coast it gets schwacked with hurricanes on the regular. The threat of rolling blackouts and brownouts just aren't a thing. It's more likely that someone can screw up a local substation via vandalism than anything else.

It sounds like Texas and California brought their issues on themselves, and are not representative of the rest of the nation.

Texas has mostly fixed their grid issues after the winter storm failures of a few years ago. They are also the largest producer of green energy through wind mills. I can attest, having flown across Texas in a helicopter, that the things are everywhere!

 

[SynixMan]

What I want to know is how will the grid handle tens of millions of new EVs being added? The grid seems barely able to handle the high load from summertime air conditioner use as it is. People could say, "Build out the grid..." but this is the United States, not China. Easier said than done.

Most charging occurs during the evening when loads on the grid are minimal. Cooler hours and people not in offices. Some locations even have lower rates during those hours that makes charging cheaper.