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Rockets Hit Lebanon Despite Cease-Fire

Carno

Insane
An interesting case is the Renaissance, which (as most of you know) French for the Rebirth. It was the beginning of the rebirth of art, literature, science, philosophy, etc. It's called the rebirth, and not the birth because all of the Christian world took a huge cultural step backward in the Middle Ages (aka Dark Ages). It forgot things that the Romans and Greeks had known 1000 years earlier - including some ideas about the value of human life and personal freedoms. If you think Mohammad inspires violence now, Jesus was the same back then.
Interesting, but I'd hardly say the Romans put a lot of value on human life or personal freedoms, at least, not in regards to their slaves. Another thing, Jesus didn't preach violence during his life. The New Testament was intended to replace the Old Testament. All of those funky laws and whatnot in the OT were made null and void with the birth of Jesus and the NT. However, many chose to ignore that and do ridiculous things in the name of God. I agree with you on the rest though.


Interestingly enough, most of what we recovered came via the Muslim scholars of the time. THEIRS were the libraries and stores of knowledge that allowed the Renaissance to happen.

It's also interesting to note that THEY were the tolerant ones. When Spain was under Moorish rule, the Christian and Jewish peasantry was allowed, and even encouraged to go about their lives in (relative) peace. It was good for business. With the reconquest by the Christians, all of that changed. The Muslims and the Jews were driven out, and the Christians were "purged" by the inquisition in the name of our Lord and Savior.

I think its important to remember that the Middle East used to be the home of great and educated civilizations (including after the coming of Islam). Why did all of that fall apart and degenerate into the current freakshow? I suppose it is for the same reason that Rome, Greece, Egypt, etc fell.

Maybe this post needs to be moved the "War Zone," but that's my $.02
Indeed. Why are people so ****ed up? Who can say?
 

pdx

HSM Pilot
Interesting, but I'd hardly say the Romans put a lot of value on human life or personal freedoms, at least, not in regards to their slaves.

I see why you would say this, but I think it is a case of measuring their culture from a more modern perspective.

Roman citizens did have certain rights and freedoms that even the government could not take away. AND there were ways for many people in the Roman Empire to become a citizen. One reason Rome managed to stay strong for as long as it did was that it assimilated cultures. They didn't revolt because life under the tyranny of Rome was just as good or better than life under the local tyrant they had before.

I am not saying they placed the same value on human life that modern civilization does, and the distinction between citizens and non-citizens certainly violates many of our ideals about equality. Still, they were developing many ideas about rights, freedom, government, etc that have become foundations of the modern world.

Also it is good to remember that Rome changed dramatically during its stay on Earth. Some of the stereotypical images that we have were only true during the latter parts of Roman society (i.e. "decadent Rome").
 

zuggerat

Registered User
can we just drop leaflets like this and be done with them?

sharing.gif
 

TurnandBurn55

Drinking, flying, or looking busy!!
None
Unlike Christians, who never do that kind of thing. Kurt Warner scores a touchdown - THANK YOU JESUS!

Brett

The fundamental (pun intended) difference here is that the Bible says "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's". I think we'll all agree it's that sort of statement that sprouted novel concepts like separation of church and state... concepts that got this nation going.

Islam has no such injuction. There's no "what is Caesar's" and no "what is God's"... it's all God's. There's no evolution of secular government that way...

In our country guys like Pat Robertson have influence on the government, but no sort of formal standing. Could you imagine if him and his cohorts had legtimate authority to interpret the Constitution and every law?

That's what these Islamic states are stuck with. You can't separate the two...
 

Jolly Roger

Yes. I am a Pirate.
You know, you people are debating the wrong topic as the problem in the Middle East. Religion is not at the central heart of the issue. The lust for power is the heart of matter. Just as it was in the Inquisition, a religion is being used as a vehicle to gain power, wealth, and status. In the Inquisition it was Christianity, today it is Islam. Islam is being used by Clerics and Shieks and Immams to accumulate and sustain power. Just like God's name was invoked to go off on the Crusades to gain wealth, land, and status. Just like Spain's wars under Phillip II, they were not "religious wars" as they were claimed to be. But they were fought under the guise of religion while really extending the Spanish Empire or maintaining Phillip's power base, as in the Calvinist Revolt of 1566 and the Dutch Revolt of 1568. Like I said religion is not the problem, it is the turd sandwiches that use it to forward their own ends.

Though I think Marx was a giant douche' and sloppy sh*t sandwich, his quote on religion, "Religon is the opiate of the masses," is not far off the mark.
 

skidz

adrenaline junky
This arguing over religion sh!t has got to stop. All it does is make people who don't know when to stop throw a fit that only their computer hears. Where is Fly when you need him with his pic of that retard running, as it says, arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even if you win, you're still a retard, or something like that.
 

Carno

Insane
What the **** are you talking about skidz? I hardly see anyone "throwing a fit" in here.

Anyways, to get back on topic, I agree with you Jolly Roger. To expound on your post, it's not the lust for power, it's the lack of measures to regulate that lust. People in every country of the world lust for power, but the US, for instance, has measures to regulate that lust (even if they are slowly being eroded).

That's the whole point of democracy and the republic, to not give any one man ultimate power.
 

Zilch

This...is...Caketown!
That's the whole point of democracy and the republic, to not give any one man ultimate power.

Right you are. Human nature has always been flawed. We're just fortunate to have a system that meshes fairly well with that nature, I think.
 

TurnandBurn55

Drinking, flying, or looking busy!!
None
Religion is not at the central heart of the issue. The lust for power is the heart of matter. Just as it was in the Inquisition, a religion is being used as a vehicle to gain power, wealth, and status. In the Inquisition it was Christianity, today it is Islam.

Are you kidding me? Dude, Spain was the predominant power of the 16th century. They had treasure fleets running back and forth carrying gold bullion. They had massive military power. Yeah, their ideas of mercantalism and bullionism were flawed, but they were in power, their religious ideals were in power, and they were fighting other people challenging their power (go look at the 1618-1648 War again)

Osama lives in a f#cking cave in Northern Pakistan. His followers are dudes who live on a dollar a day, whose 14 year old kids are burning American flags and making Molotov cocktails. This is not people in power trying to keep power. This is the "have-nots" fighting the "haves". Do you really think the average Muslim calls him "Sheik" Osama because he's so powerful? Or because maybe they believe that the West is morally corrupt, that Islam has the high ground, and they'll live in squalid poverty fighting the infidels and apostates for all eternity because they think their Qu'Ran is the end all?

Dude, it's not the same. I agree that Christianity in the Inquistion and Islam in the Salafi Jihad are going through the same adolescent period 15 centuries after inception... but at least in the West's case we had ideas to separate the Church from the State (even if it took awhile to take place). Is there any Islamic equivalent to St Augustine's "City of God"? No, they would think it's preposterous... there's no distinction between the City of God and the City of Man... it's all one and then same... that's why some of these people are willing to fight no matter how many bombs are dropped on them.

I hate to be cliched... but until they realize that their culture once created mathematics, optics, and all sorts of other scholastic acheivments... and could perhaps replicate that sort of grand culture...

They'll be stuck suicide bombing and driving camels yelling "Derka! Derka! Mohammed! Jihad!"
 

H20man

Drill baby drill!
Osama lives in a f#cking cave in Northern Pakistan. His followers are dudes who live on a dollar a day, whose 14 year old kids are burning American flags and making Molotov cocktails. This is not people in power trying to keep power. This is the "have-nots" fighting the "haves". Do you really think the average Muslim calls him "Sheik" Osama because he's so powerful? Or because maybe they believe that the West is morally corrupt, that Islam has the high ground, and they'll live in squalid poverty fighting the infidels and apostates for all eternity because they think their Qu'Ran is the end all?

That is why I like Dubai, they worship the almighty dollar or dirham in their case.

Nothing like an indoor Ski slope, or all the Emiratees driving around in expensive sports cars or SUVs.
 

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pdx

HSM Pilot
That is why I like Dubai, they worship the almighty dollar or dirham in their case.

Nothing like an indoor Ski slope, or all the Emiratees driving around in expensive sports cars or SUVs.

The indoor ski resort (c'mon, its not just a slope) seems pretty neat. I watched them build it on the Discovery Channel.
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I've heard Dubai is a really good time. Even heard Navy guys say they'd feel safe bringing their family there.
 

Jolly Roger

Yes. I am a Pirate.
Osama lives in a f#cking cave in Northern Pakistan. His followers are dudes who live on a dollar a day, whose 14 year old kids are burning American flags and making Molotov cocktails.

Turn, I am not talking about Osama. Osama is a true believer in his version of reality. I am talking about about a-holes like Bashar, Nassralla, and Amanieajahad(sp?), I am talking about the heads of state and religious leaders who foment the hatred of the West and Israel. Osama is right of the "Arab Street", he drinks the same Kool-Aide, believes the same things, but he has the means and the education to do something about it, a la Al Qaeda. He doesn't have a political power base to maintain.

Why do they do it? Because it is what the people want to hear it? Because if they don't preach the hatred, someone will step in and replace them? Is it because it is common thread that can unify the "Street" and make them forget how ****ty their country and lives, are like you said? I think it really a combination of all the above.

For example, the events leading up to the Six Day War of 1967. What you had was a three race by the Ba'athists in Syria, Nasser in Egypt, and Hussien in Jordan to see who would gain politcal dominance in the region after the Suez War of 1956. Each spewing more vitriolic proganda in to the street about the West, Israel, and each other, than the rest. It became a game of one upmanship, that eventually goaded Nassar into tossing out the UNEF in the Sinai, occupying it, and closing the Straits of Tiran. Which then snowballed into war with Israel. The point here is that Nasser was not in a position to go to war, nor was Hussien or the Syrians, but they were dragged into it by their own machinations against one another.

Domestically, in Nasser's case, he had to use hatred against Israel to unite the country. His economy was in ruins and his power was slipping, the war against Israel was a common cause that made people look past their own hardships and suffering. It allowed Nasser to lengthen his reign, by a few more years. Or in Hussien's case, he had to go to war because he was facing an overthrow by his people if he did not. So again, it back to what I said. The hatred and the religious supremacy is used as mask, for some to gain and sustain political power.

It sort of creates a self filling profecey. The average guy on the street has been bombarded with anti-West and anti-Israeli propoganda his whole life, from his "preacher", probably his family, his government, from basically anyone of consequence in his life. So yeah, they are indoctrinated in it. Like the Commies, the state is right, the state will take care of you...yatta, yatta. So then he expects the people in power to do something about, i.e. launch terrorist attacks, go to war with Israel, etc.

I conceed to you that there is a "have and have not" mentallity. I have no doubt of that.
 
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