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Re-select E2/C2 out of primary again for FY13 studs?

jarhead

UAL CA; retired hinge
pilot
Heard they were going to bring E2/C2 selection back to primary. This rumor was floating around the VTs although I can't find any references to vet it. I was wondering if anyone else knows more about it? Probably just a rumor though.

Received this from a pal who works on one of the TraWing staffs...

QOUTE
From:
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013
To:
Cc:
Subject: E-2/C-2 pipeline revamp decision

[removed],

We met with the Admiral this morning and we have a decision on this initiative: we will move forward with the realignment of the E-2/C-2 pipeline.

The overall summary sheet is attached to show what training this pipeline will entail. Big-picture: select E-2/C-2 from Primary with Tailhook NSS of at least 50, head to TW-4 for M-E training, then jet training that includes NFORM and culminates in CQ.

[removed]

We expect that overall quality and CQ performance will improve for the E-2/C-2 community, and we estimate the steady-state savings (including overhead) will be over $2M per year.

Timeline: This won't happen overnight, as we will now write two entirely new MCGs (the old syllabus for this flow wasn't MPTS). I hope to have them out of the N7 by 30 June, after which they'll route through HQ for signature. Upon signature, N3 will work the issue of first Primary E-2/C-2 selections, to synch them with the remaining students in the current flow.

V/R
[removed]

END QOUTE
 

Grizzly

Member
Thank you everyone for the interesting discussion and thank you jarhead for your answer. Looks E2/C2 selection out of primary wont be a player for me by the time I finish the pipeline.
 

jtmedli

Well-Known Member
pilot
Having P-3 and helo instructors deciding who is cut for jets is not the answer IMO. No offense to my brethren in our esteemed fellow communities, but I think the current system is more logical.

FTR, those "P3 and Helo guys" already 'decide/give grades/whatever you wanna call it' who is cut out for jets. The VTs are populated by predominately by P3 and E6B guys and that is a well known fact. For every jet or helo guy I flew with in primary, I flew with 8 P3/E6B guys. So, in a sense, by saying you have to have a 50 NSS to be selected for jets, then you are also saying that those very same P3 and Helo guys decisions about grades are good enough decisions to decide who gets jets and who doesn't.
 

RadicalDude

Social Justice Warlord
FTR, those "P3 and Helo guys" already 'decide/give grades/whatever you wanna call it' who is cut out for jets. The VTs are populated by predominately by P3 and E6B guys and that is a well known fact. For every jet or helo guy I flew with in primary, I flew with 8 P3/E6B guys. So, in a sense, by saying you have to have a 50 NSS to be selected for jets, then you are also saying that those very same P3 and Helo guys decisions about grades are good enough decisions to decide who gets jets and who doesn't.

Not really though. Yeah, their decisions will, piecemeal, along the way, add up to the sum total of a primary student's NSS. But, at the end of primary you're going to have quite a few kids who are above the cut to make jets. We all know that at that point it's a crapshoot what you select based on timing, preferences, and the fabled "needs of the navy." MIDNJAC, if I may put words in his mouth, is just saying it works better for the communities to have a STUCON full of tailhook guys make the decision who is cut out for which community. Especially after considering the additional data they'd glean in J1.
 

KBayDog

Well-Known Member
Everyone in J1/intermediate got a fair shake at the jet, and jet IP's (rather than primary helo and P-3 IP's) got to make the determination about who had the aptitude to continue on into strike...I can't imagine that the old system would have made as fair of an assessment. Having P-3 and helo instructors deciding who is cut for jets is not the answer IMO.

No dog in this fight, either (I've got nothing to do with Primary - I'm an Advanced Helo IP), but I think your view of the role of Primary, as well as how "we" IPs grade the way we do, is a bit off. Primary doesn't exist solely to determine who "is cut for jets", nor do the Primary IPs give grades based on whether or not they think someone can handle the strike/tailhook/however they're doing it this week pipeline. This would be similar to me - a Marine Phrog dude - grading someone based on whether or not I think they have the aptitude to fly AH/UH-1s, CH/MH-53s, or the smorgasbord of H-60s that the Navy flies.

Is pipeline/platform/duty station usually a result of NSS? Yup. Can the students or their IPs control their NSS? Nope. Can the students or their IPs control whether or not Big Navy is going to have a Jet Draft that week? Nope. Can the students or their IPs control whether or not the Marines are going to have an Osprey Draft that week? Nope.

In fact, you nailed it:
Granted sometimes it just came down to numbers and luck, but by and large when I was there, the guys and gals who went E2/C2 went there for a reason. Nothing wrong with that, and they weren't bad aviators, but 90% of the time, it was based on performance.

"The more things change..." :D

Since NSS and various 'drafts' are out of our hands, it's worth noting that "we" award grades based on whether or not the students meet the largely objective MPTS standards for each individual event. For example, on an ILS, I don't award a "4" based on whether or not the student is cut out for -60Rs. I award it if he "Performs IAW the FTI/INAV procedures and the applicable FAR/AIM. Maintains within 3/4 deflection (+/- 3 dot width) of localizer and glideslope; maintains airspeed +/- 10 KIAS." Yes, I have latitude to allow minor deviations, as long as they are "...brief, minor, and do not affect the safety of flight. Corrections must be appropriate and timely." That's it. I don't award a lower grade I don't think he can ultimately handle a helo with an ILS - I award him his grade based on his performance in the TH-57C on that particular approach on that particular day.

BLOB: "Big Navy/Marine Corps/Coast Guard" determines where the students wind up when we're done with them. The IPs instruct and award grades based on the demonstrated preparation and skill of the students, as outlined in the appropriate CNATRA instructions.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
For example, on an ILS, I don't award a "4" based on whether or not the student is cut out for -60Rs. I award it if he "Performs IAW the FTI/INAV procedures and the applicable FAR/AIM. Maintains within 3/4 deflection (+/- 3 dot width) of localizer and glideslope; maintains airspeed +/- 10 KIAS." Yes, I have latitude to allow minor deviations, as long as they are "...brief, minor, and do not affect the safety of flight. Corrections must be appropriate and timely." That's it. I don't award a lower grade I don't think he can ultimately handle a helo with an ILS - I award him his grade based on his performance in the TH-57C on that particular approach on that particular day.

Softie. MIF, at best!
 

statesman

Shut up woman... get on my horse.
pilot
FTR, those "P3 and Helo guys" already 'decide/give grades/whatever you wanna call it' who is cut out for jets. The VTs are populated by predominately by P3 and E6B guys and that is a well known fact. For every jet or helo guy I flew with in primary, I flew with 8 P3/E6B guys.

Not a fact at all actually. The billeting for VTs favors helo guys. Especially more recently. With rotors becoming a larger part of the navy pilot pool their share of orders out of millington has gone up. Right now it's decently difficult to get VT orders from P-3/P-8 land.
 
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