"Pilots Pull Rank, Declare Emergency At JFK (With Audio)"

[MakeNoise]

The problem I have with this situation is the way the pilot declared the emergency. He first threatened(sounding like a douchebag) that if his request wasnt met he would declare an emergency. If you actually have an emergency worth declaring you just do it. You don't beat around the bush crying wolf because you didn't get the clearance you wanted.

Sounds to me like the FO was trying to relay what the CAPT wanted to ATC, then the CAPT finally jumps on the radio and tells them to clear everyone.

Wasn't there, don't know what happened. However, that never stopped me from being an armchair quarterback. Guessing some causal factors: closed runways, fuel, high winds, controllers with attitude, NYC, age 65, LCCs, 50% paycuts, long crew days, FAA, etc, etc....

As stated earlier, airline pilots are very experienced and professional, and they don't go blowing thru JFK without a valid reason. Also, sounded like good wx and I'm sure the CAPT knew where the traffic was (TCAS) and knew what he was doing. The question is did he regret it after he landed?

 

[A4sForever]

When a flight attendant questions your approach, are you ever tempted to say something ....

Yeah ... it happens once in a while ... semi-long answer, wa-a-a-a-ay too long, but there's no other way to do it. It would be mo' bettah' over a beer, I suppose ...

Two examples, one Alpha, one Omega (opposite ends of the F/A age spectrum):

1. The Omega. One ol' crank who used to be a sparring partner for Gene Tunney once wondered 'what was the matter' after one of my departures out of Honolulu ...

Background: what she didn't know ... but now YOU do ... was that I had figured out the 'system' in HNL and how it 'worked' after a few months ... so after takeoff, I would stand the WHALE on her right wingtip (a slight exaggeration, but you get the idea) EXACTLY at 400' having retracted the gear and then hold her down at @ 1000' while sucking up the flaps ... and then, contrary to the doctrinaire-drone-tenets of 'SOP', but completely 'legal' ... I would accelerate to climb speed (I'd instructed my F/O's to request a 'high-speed departure' as soon as the flaps came up ... ) ... and we'd 'pop' it up and do a ballistic trajectory climb (another slight exaggeration) and get our desired altitude 95%+ of the time and always ahead of flight plan. The local ATC Bruddah's 'knew me' and would give me the desired routing based upon my requests & 'flying'. The result?? I'd ALWAYS 'beat' the competition to Tokyo and land over planned fuel specs ... without fail.

Sooooooooo ... when she 'commented' ... I just said something to the effect of: "You're just lucky to fly w/ guys who know what they're doing w/ the airplane. And you're welcome ... " She gave me the stink-eye ... nothing more was ever said ..

2. The Alpha. One new, young, fresh F/A from De-e-e-e-e-etroit came unglued after we landed in Guam on the backside of the passing edge of a typhoon. She positively freaked out during approach & landing because of the ride.

Background: we were the first bird in there after an airport shut-down for @ 2 1/2 days compliments of a 'Super-Typhoon' ... and it was a 'big one'. We probably should have waited for another half-day before flying, but that wasn't my call -- it was Dispatch, Marketing, and Flight Ops ... blah, blah, blah ...

So down we went from NRT ... all the NAVAIDs in GUM were down 'cept the ADF 24R ... so I was cleared for the approach and as soon as we got below 5000' we were getting banged by winds/turbulence, big time ... Saipan was still shut down, so that was not an option. As it turned out -- the ATIS was WRONG (the actual was MUCH worse -- AND THE TOWER WAS JUST REGURGITATING THE ATIS UNTIL I HAD TO GO AROUND AND THEN DEMANDED THE ACTUAL, CURRENT WINDS AT THAT MOMENT !!!) and we should have been going for the other runway ... how jolly.

It became apparent towards the bottom of the approach w/ a 60 knot left quartering TAILWIND that there was a problem making the bird 'stick' on deck IF I could plant her. As I got to @ 300' AGL and couldn't keep the ol' girl aligned w/ the runway, I said something to the effect of: "THIS AIN'T GONNA' HAPPEN -- GO AROUND POWER, FLAPS 10 ... (pause) ... GEAR UP" !!! Back up we went into the scattered/broken clag and the tower wanted to know WTF did I want to do ... ???

It was too hard to translate via my F/O, so I picked up the mic & said "We're comin' back around opposite direction for a visual to 6L" ... and we did it, banging all the way down ... A ROUGH APPROACH !!! ... the mechanics watching us from the ramp said the rear 1/2 of the bird 'disappeared' in the water/rooster-tail after I landed & went into reverse thrust ...

Back to the F/A ... she was still near-hysterical when it was time to man (and woman) up again @ 2 hours later ... so I took my cockpit crew (for witnesses) and the Lead F/A over to her, sat next to her and said something like: "You need to get a grip. You need to regain control of yourself. This is what happens once in a while in this job. In your present state of mind -- you are a hazard to the flight, to the rest of your crew, and to the passengers ... " There was a little more said ... obviously ... but that's the 'meat' of it.

I turned to the Lead and told him: "Either she gets her act together and becomes a functioning member of YOUR crew again, or she stays here. (It would have taken her days to get out with the accumulated back-log of passengers & crew sitting in GUM). She is not going to get on my airplane if she can't control herself. She's more of a hazard to herself and the passengers than she is a help. She's now YOUR problem -- you deal with it and let me know what you've decided before we shut the door. But she's not going with us to Tokyo in her current state. I just have only ONE question: do you have any questions about that ... ??? "

I got the call prior to door closing ... the Lead told me he'd got the situation resolved & in control ... I think she sat in a jump-seat in the aft galley for the ride to Tokyo, but I never heard another word about it.

There's a few more (not really all that many) ... but once again ... after talkin' about it ... I now need a drink.

Peace.

 

[wink]

What I can say for sure is that 14CFR part 121.639 is pretty clear about fuel to be required on board. These pilots should have had more than enough fuel on board to fly runway heading, and then be sequenced for the approach. Especially if conditions were VMC.

I won't comment on the incident in question, haven't even listened to the audio yet. But the post above requires some comment since so many nuggets and studs read this sort of thing. Just because you are in compliance with the FAR doesn't mean it is all unicorns and cotton candy. There be dragons. 121.639 gives you fuel after intended landing to a divert, if required, and then 45 minutes until absolute fuel exhaustion. That is it. You make it sound so easy, runway heading re enter the pattern. It is freaking JFK!!! So lets say a divert wasn't required that means you would have 45 minutes fuel if simply following the FAR. Hell, even if a divert were required, it could be Newark or Philly. That ain't much more gas to play with if you don't actually need to fly the divert. So lets say you have your 45 min FAR reserve, do you know what power setting that is at? How about you are flying that approach and have a gear problem. Gear down and dirty a B767 will go through the "45 minute"reserve in considerably less time then 45 minutes. How long does it take to run the checklist? Lets say there is no problem at all. I can not see going around at JFK and getting on the deck in less then 30 minutes short of declaring an emergency and flying a close visual pattern. I don't want to be in any plane with less then 15 minutes gas. All it takes is a runway incursion, another go around, and you are in the papers. Relying on the FARs will get you killed. I don't care what 121.639 says. It doesn't take into account all the dragon lairs encountered during the fight. You young'uns need to take heed. Old conservative scaredy cat pilot out.

 

[eas7888]

I won't comment on the incident in question, haven't even listened to the audio yet. But the post above requires some comment since so many nuggets and studs read this sort of thing. Just because you are in compliance with the FAR doesn't mean it is all unicorns and cotton candy. There be dragons. 121.639 gives you fuel after intended landing to a divert, if required, and then 45 minutes until absolute fuel exhaustion. That is it. You make it sound so easy, runway heading re enter the pattern. It is freaking JFK!!! So lets say a divert wasn't required that means you would have 45 minutes fuel if simply following the FAR. Hell, even if a divert were required, it could be Newark or Philly. That ain't much more gas to play with if you don't actually need to fly the divert. So lets say you have your 45 min FAR reserve, do you know what power setting that is at? How about you are flying that approach and have a gear problem. Gear down and dirty a B767 will go through the "45 minute"reserve in considerably less time then 45 minutes. How long does it take to run the checklist? Lets say there is no problem at all. I can not see going around at JFK and getting on the deck in less then 30 minutes short of declaring an emergency and flying a close visual pattern. I don't want to be in any plane with less then 15 minutes gas. All it takes is a runway incursion, another go around, and you are in the papers. Relying on the FARs will get you killed. I don't care what 121.639 says. It doesn't take into account all the dragon lairs encountered during the fight. You young'uns need to take heed. Old conservative scaredy cat pilot out.

Touché wink. .639 requires fuel to the most distant alternate, and then 45 minutes at cruise. You're right to say that flying dirty will eat through the fuel in a hurry.

This is what happens when I try and armchair quarterback Either way, only two people really have the whole story as to what happened, and I only hope we can hear their side of the story soon enough.

A4 - You've always got the best stories to share.

 

[wink]

Touché wink. .639 requires fuel to the most distant alternate, and then 45 minutes at cruise. You're right to say that flying dirty will eat through the fuel in a hurry.

Good research. Surely, learning is occurring for someone reading this. Keep in mind the "most distant" alternate only comes into play if more then one alternate is filed. And in any case, "most distant" does not imply far away .

 

[eas7888]

Good research. Surely, learning is occurring for someone reading this. Keep in mind the "most distant" alternate only comes into play if more then one alternate is filed. And in any case, "most distant" does not imply far away .

I'm all about learning. The primary reason I joined the site. The only reason I even remembered 121.639 is that I just recently had to do a presentation in class over part 121 and 135 fuel requirements. Lucky me. :thumbdn_1

 

[Birdog8585]

By the looks of it this thread is gonna be required reading in CNATRA.

As far as more to the story, what about in the beginning of the clip where the AA pilot mentions the localizer is out? Then another pilot mentions that the ILS is inop for 22. Factor?

Oh yeah, the pilot sounded like an arrogant fvc*tard on the radio. Understand his reasoning a bit more with Wink's fuel rationale but he didn't have to act like somebody just shit in his cornflakes (cite: A4s Professionalism piece).

 

[Ducky]

By the looks of it this thread is gonna be required reading in CNATRA.

Back on topic, what about the reason for 31L being closed and the decision to go there almost immediately? The narrator at the end of the sound bite stated it was closed for a 4 month long "face-lift" that includes re-paving and widening. Is it just me or would that not be the safest choice either, being that the probability of, I dunno, say an ASPHALT EATER or some other slightly hazardous piece of equipment being out there?? What about uneven pavement due to asphalt being recently eaten, even if you didn't see any equipment?? Talk about stopping distance.

As far as more to the story, what about in the beginning of the clip where the AA pilot mentions the localizer is out? Then another pilot mentions that the ILS is inop for 22. Factor?

Oh yeah, the pilot sounded like an arrogant fvc*tard on the radio. Understand his reasoning a bit more with Wink's fuel rationale but he didn't have to act like somebody just shit in his cornflakes (cite: A4s Professionalism piece).

They were requesting and eventually cleared for 31R

 

[KBayDog]

By the looks of it this thread is gonna be required reading in CNATRA.

As well it should be. This situation, and its ensuing discussion, is one of the better ones of late on AW. The discussion is being approached from all angles, which is refreshing.

Certainly worthy of a PIC/HAC board scenario.

 

[ryan1234]

NY TRACON sounded like JFK was single runway operations due to 'wind' about two nights ago.... lot's of holdin' ...lot's of 'min fuel.. ok hold, etc'

It's been a little windy up here these past few days

 

[HuggyU2]

From what I've seen,... and from what I've heard of how the JFK controllers can be,... good on the pilot for not allowing "their problem" to become "his problem". Maybe, if it happened more often, we wouldn't see aircraft slide off the end of a very short, snow covered runway, in a tailwind and kill a 6 year old kid. Certainly, they were pushed to land with the tailwind from Approach.

 

[AJTranny]

Yeah but declaring an emergency made his problem everyone's problem. Which is ok if he really had an emergency and wasn't just comparing dicks with the controller. I don't quite see the parallel to the SWA MDW accident. At least with the limited info provided here.

 

[wink]

O.K. I have looked at this enough to feel comfortable throwing a Hail Mary pass from my arm chair. Runway 31L/13R is, in fact, closed for repairs since a few weeks ago and will remain so for many months. The airlines and FAA have prepared for this. There are new procedures to help deal with the delays, not the least of which was the airlines cutting nearly 10% of their flights going into the busy summer months. It is costing them lots of money. One of the accommodations is to avoid using the single remaining 13/31 runway so they are not in a single runway configuration. The delays would be horrible and most flight at JFK arrive from overseas after 8-15 hours of flying and can be behind on their fuel ladder due to unforcast winds or weather diversions over the pond/poles. So JFK was using the 22s so they could land on two runways. They would never have run that configuration in those winds if both 31/13s were available. It seems they stayed with the 22s too long. At my airline we don't land the silver jet if gusts are above the x-wind limit. It makes sense. If the steady state is legal but the gust isn't, how can you know when the gust is going to blow up? I bet it will gust just as you are in the flare and running out of rudder. So, in this case a 35Kt gust was illegal for them to land in. The controller did not want to turn the airport around and cause lots of delays, but a gust of 35 is not legal for most aircraft and operators. The guys that landed ahead of this AA pilot were very likely outside their company policy and maybe the aircraft fight manual. No one was going to say a thing. The pilots want to get on the deck too. The controllers don't want delays or the hassle of turning the airport around. If the pilot sounded like an ass, well he may have been a bit tired and even sick and tired of JFK games. I bet he sounded much like A4s would have after a crossing from HK, stern, confident, clear and in command. We should all act that way, whether we sound like it or not.

 

[ImfromJersey]

I applaud that the pilot was exerting his command and judgment to put the aircraft safely on deck, whether we agree with his reasoning, thats still debatable. However, I feel like we aren't touching on the fact that this could have been a terrible situation if he failed to see the corporate chopper headed into Manhattan, or the express jet that just so happened to be crossing at the wrong time. I realize that theses are outlandish possibilities, but they're still possibilities. It's not like this captain was the last plane on deck at JFK with no other air traffic flying around him, if that were the case, we'd all probably jump on the approach bashing bandwagon and this wouldn't even be a thread. This seemed to happen during a very busy time at the airport. The only reason that this is even a major discussion is because the pilot could have caused a serious mishap by just pulling into the visual pattern willy-nilly. I'm sure he had his reasons, but even with my limited experience in the TRACOMS, I can see how incredibly dangerous that can be. I'm sure he thought his situational awareness was high, but I know we've all seen those Cessna's about 2 seconds too late and created those hair raising situations we'd rather not be in. That's ok in an orange and white, but with a 767 loaded with fare paying passengers, that could be a serious catastrophe. Quoting a previous post, he made his problem everyone's problem. I would love to hear some opinions on that side of the issue, not necessarily on the battle between the pilot and the controller.

 

[FrankTheTank]

Rumor I got is they landed with 6500 lbs of fuel? After 3 turns in holding prior to approach..

Discuss...

Not brought up in the audio tapes but noteworthy, nonetheless.