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"Pilots Pull Rank, Declare Emergency At JFK (With Audio)"
- Thread starter Catmando
- Start date
Was he in some sort of extremis or just didn't want the duty runway? I understand his company and airframe have wind limits but offering up an ultimatum to atc without something being wrong with him seems like a dick move. If you don't have the gas to hold while atc fits you in fine but to to bust out the e-word without requiring priority handling not only fucks atc, but all the other airplanes that have to be reworked to accomodate you. I'm guessing there is more to the story than just winds.
No. Sometimes they will switch you to a discrete freq to break down some of the chatter, but you don't switch to guard unless you can't reach anyone on any other frequencies (or I guess if you are short on time and can't raise anyone elsewhere in a timely manner).
Ready-Room-Commandos make me tired ... but for the sake of discussion:
Yeah ... HAL's got it right -- what a surprise -- I wish ALL airline pilots had as much common sense as our misbegotten-bastard-P3-NFO-cum-pilot who now fly's to great credit and effect for Hawaiian Airlines ... and in case some of you are just dense -- 'cum' comes (no pun) from the Latin and is a preposition meaning 'plus' ... didn't you take Latin in Jr. High school ???
JFK is fucked up -- they always have been, they always will be -- whether it's on the ground or in the air. Theft, crime, the Mafia, murder, robbery, convoluted arrivals/departures, asshole controllers w/ an attitude, an aging, decaying airport infrastructure, lazy ground personnel, and the whole NYC 'mindset' -- they've got it all. I've been there A LOT and that's my considered opinion and I doubt it is going to change anytime soon ... soooooooooooooooooooo .... back to the question:
The local controllers LIKE TO USE the 22's for landing traffic no matter what the wind -- noise abatement and mando-departure traffic flow (especially for the 'heavies' going west) off the 31's and sometimes the 13's dictate that long standing local policy. Again, the predominant WX/winds and noise considerations figure BIG TIME in the decision-making process for JFK. Some of the WORST fucking landings I've experienced/made in JFK were on the 22's when the wind was at or near 'max limits'. You were fighting it -- the winds/WX -- all the way down, and the result was less than my normal 'smooth as a baby's bottom' landing ...
Having said that: if you listen I think the original 'wind call' on the audio was something like '23 gusting to 35' ... the 'gusting to 35' part was NOT repeated in the audio offered to the following flights which is kind of telling ... it's almost like tower didn't want anyone else going around to 31 after hearing the gust factor put landings 'out-of-limits' ... ???
But: the rapidity with which the AA crew went to the mat in 'declaring an emergency' makes me question whether or not there was 'something else going on' here?? It's not the kind of 'snap decision' a Captain makes when in the short-hairs and is close to landing. He might go around (I have) ... but to declare an EMERGENCY and blow up the pattern is something else ...
If they had a 'mechanical' ... they should have said it. If fuel was a consideration ... they should have said it. You don't fly in a fucking vacuum when you're talkin' w/ ATC on the radio. And you can't just 'BLOW UP' and say 'I've got an emergency' ... so I'm gonna' do it 'my way' ( w/ applogies to NYC and Frank Sinatra -- my Dad hated him, for the record). Without knowing any 'real' details, it almost appears that the AA cockpit pushed the panic button and shot from the lip (sic) instead of going around and getting 're-set' for the 31's at the controllers' discretion ... but again ... I wasn't there.
A less that 'well-informed' reading of the situation might indicate the crew went beyond what was necessary when they declared the emergency.
However, I've been in a similar situation -- not the 'same', but similar (again, we don't know the whole story, as we said) -- at an airport in CONUS -- and after holding for WX, we were the first bird down the chute when the airport re-opened .... approach control set me up for a runway and announced the wind ... I said "NO ... that's out of limits" ... it got real quiet for @ 5-10 seconds on the freq. ... and that's an eternity in aviation ... and then Dash-2, Dash-3, Dash 4, etc., etc. all piped up and said "ME TOO -- THAT'S OUT OF LIMITS" ... approach got severly pissed w/me and sent me way the hell & back while I went to max-endurance (w/ everyone else following) while they changed runways ... we came in and landed w/ heavy winds on the nose instead of on the right wing.
It was the 'right thing' to do ... it was a textbook solution ... it worked. Declaring an 'emergency' would have been the 'wrong thing' to do ...
All of a sudden, I have an overwhelming need for a drink ... a strong one, at that ...
Yeah ... HAL's got it right -- what a surprise -- I wish ALL airline pilots had as much common sense as our misbegotten-bastard-P3-NFO-cum-pilot who now fly's to great credit and effect for Hawaiian Airlines ... and in case some of you are just dense -- 'cum' comes (no pun) from the Latin and is a preposition meaning 'plus' ... didn't you take Latin in Jr. High school ???
JFK is fucked up -- they always have been, they always will be -- whether it's on the ground or in the air. Theft, crime, the Mafia, murder, robbery, convoluted arrivals/departures, asshole controllers w/ an attitude, an aging, decaying airport infrastructure, lazy ground personnel, and the whole NYC 'mindset' -- they've got it all. I've been there A LOT and that's my considered opinion and I doubt it is going to change anytime soon ... soooooooooooooooooooo .... back to the question:
The local controllers LIKE TO USE the 22's for landing traffic no matter what the wind -- noise abatement and mando-departure traffic flow (especially for the 'heavies' going west) off the 31's and sometimes the 13's dictate that long standing local policy. Again, the predominant WX/winds and noise considerations figure BIG TIME in the decision-making process for JFK. Some of the WORST fucking landings I've experienced/made in JFK were on the 22's when the wind was at or near 'max limits'. You were fighting it -- the winds/WX -- all the way down, and the result was less than my normal 'smooth as a baby's bottom' landing ...
Having said that: if you listen I think the original 'wind call' on the audio was something like '23 gusting to 35' ... the 'gusting to 35' part was NOT repeated in the audio offered to the following flights which is kind of telling ... it's almost like tower didn't want anyone else going around to 31 after hearing the gust factor put landings 'out-of-limits' ... ???
But: the rapidity with which the AA crew went to the mat in 'declaring an emergency' makes me question whether or not there was 'something else going on' here?? It's not the kind of 'snap decision' a Captain makes when in the short-hairs and is close to landing. He might go around (I have) ... but to declare an EMERGENCY and blow up the pattern is something else ...
If they had a 'mechanical' ... they should have said it. If fuel was a consideration ... they should have said it. You don't fly in a fucking vacuum when you're talkin' w/ ATC on the radio. And you can't just 'BLOW UP' and say 'I've got an emergency' ... so I'm gonna' do it 'my way' ( w/ applogies to NYC and Frank Sinatra -- my Dad hated him, for the record). Without knowing any 'real' details, it almost appears that the AA cockpit pushed the panic button and shot from the lip (sic) instead of going around and getting 're-set' for the 31's at the controllers' discretion ... but again ... I wasn't there.
A less that 'well-informed' reading of the situation might indicate the crew went beyond what was necessary when they declared the emergency.
However, I've been in a similar situation -- not the 'same', but similar (again, we don't know the whole story, as we said) -- at an airport in CONUS -- and after holding for WX, we were the first bird down the chute when the airport re-opened .... approach control set me up for a runway and announced the wind ... I said "NO ... that's out of limits" ... it got real quiet for @ 5-10 seconds on the freq. ... and that's an eternity in aviation ... and then Dash-2, Dash-3, Dash 4, etc., etc. all piped up and said "ME TOO -- THAT'S OUT OF LIMITS" ... approach got severly pissed w/me and sent me way the hell & back while I went to max-endurance (w/ everyone else following) while they changed runways ... we came in and landed w/ heavy winds on the nose instead of on the right wing.
It was the 'right thing' to do ... it was a textbook solution ... it worked.
Declaring an 'emergency' would have been the 'wrong thing' to do ... All of a sudden, I have an overwhelming need for a drink ... a strong one, at that ...
Echoing what A4 said. It's really hard to know why the emergency was declared, and if it was justified without knowing all the variables. I kinda want to buy the Captain a drink. I might punch him in the face before the night is over, but it's a story I'd like to hear.
This about sums up my feelings as well.
I think you are right about there being a little more to it. I would like to hear the 30 seconds or so before the recorded portion.
At one point the controller said something to the effect "I told you that if you wanted 31, you had to declare an emergency."
Basically, the pilot said "Fuck it, have it your way. I declare an emergency, now move everyone the fuck out of my way."
Sounds to me like the controller created his own problem, and the fact that he stopped telling people that winds were gusting to 35MPH just backs up the fact that he probably needed an attitude adjustment.
Is it legal for a controller to intentionally misrepresent the wind conditions like that?
Coming into LAX one day in one of China Lake's U-3s headed for 25R and approach told me to maintain an airspeed above the U-3s gear speed. Since I was close in, I said negative, I'm slowing to gear lowering speed. The controller said "Roger come left 180. After a while he said come left 090. then left 360 and finally left 250. He then said NOW - will you maintain XX knots? I said Yes Sir - Yes Sir ( the three bags full was implied) and ended up landing two thirds of the way down the runway. It's a long runway, so I got it stopped okay, and I sure didn't want another tour of Orange County. Never heard anything more about it. There was no rancor involved and neither tower or ground said a word.
Yes, the controller is only required to give the spot winds at the time he looks at his wind gauge. The ATIS gives the trend. Many of us have used this to stay "legal" for landing (but you gotta know your own limits and be willing to take the heat if you screw it up....).
I gotta ask, why? I've had plenty of controllers ask us to fly 200 on the approach, and an "unable due to configuration" has always solved it. what kind of cholo wants someone to exceed the capabilities of an aircraft in his sector...his voice is recorded for posterity no matter what, yours depends on them finding a black box.
Maybe they jumped the gun on the e-word. Maybe this captain is a total tool who just doesn't like x-winds. Maybe there was 42 other things going wrong with that jet. As its been stated, we just don't know.
What gets me in a tickle is the way this ATC controller handled the situation. Other than his job and his conscience he really doesn't have a whole lot (i.e. his life) at stake here. In my mind the conversation should have gone something like this:
"American XX, declaring an emergency"
"Understand you've declared an emergency, what do you need?"
"Visual approach (or whatever) 31R"
"Roger, clear to land 31R"
It's ATC's job to figure out how to get every one out of the way. It's the captain's job to operate the A/C safely. We can figure everything else out on the ground when 200+ lives aren't hurling around the sky.
What gets me in a tickle is the way this ATC controller handled the situation. Other than his job and his conscience he really doesn't have a whole lot (i.e. his life) at stake here. In my mind the conversation should have gone something like this:
"American XX, declaring an emergency"
"Understand you've declared an emergency, what do you need?"
"Visual approach (or whatever) 31R"
"Roger, clear to land 31R"
It's ATC's job to figure out how to get every one out of the way. It's the captain's job to operate the A/C safely. We can figure everything else out on the ground when 200+ lives aren't hurling around the sky.
^ When you declare an emergency, you get to deviate from the FARs only to the extent required to meet the nature of the emergency - it's not a blank check. The controller also had a lot of other aircraft to keep separated that had many more people on board to keep alive. I have no problem with him telling the AA pilot to fly runway heading so he can clear other traffic out of the way while maintaining their safety and preventing chaos. I think the AA pilot deviated far more than necessary.
I had countless emergencies in the mighty broke-dick warpig during my Navy career. Never once did I have a PPC say "fuck you I've declared an emergency and I'll do what I want". There are situations that require a PIC to do this (i.e. Hudson ditching) but this wasn't one. Every pilot I've talked to at Hawaiian thinks this AA guy abused his authority and will pay the price when the FAA investigates. They also think this controller displayed remarkable restraint. (Again based on as much information as available here so who knows the real story. But if this is all there is, then the AA pilot was just plain wrong and a dick.)
I had countless emergencies in the mighty broke-dick warpig during my Navy career. Never once did I have a PPC say "fuck you I've declared an emergency and I'll do what I want". There are situations that require a PIC to do this (i.e. Hudson ditching) but this wasn't one. Every pilot I've talked to at Hawaiian thinks this AA guy abused his authority and will pay the price when the FAA investigates. They also think this controller displayed remarkable restraint. (Again based on as much information as available here so who knows the real story. But if this is all there is, then the AA pilot was just plain wrong and a dick.)