Path to Experimental Test Pilot?

[bmather9]

So I have a long story about how I was robbed of my pilot slot by the USAF, chronicled here: https://www.airwarriors.com/communi...nter-service-transfer-for-color-vision.34429/

Eventually I found my way into the Army National Guard flying H-60’s, which I enjoy, but my long-term goal has always been to go to experimental test pilot school. The problem I have is that I don’t see a path that can get me there, from where I am right now in the Guard. I don’t believe the National Guard sends aviators to test pilot school. So I’m considering many options and have lots of questions, but am looking to solicit advice.

Experience wise, I come up short on flight hours, just under 500 total and that’s including about 100 hours buzzing around in Cessnas. I do have some great experience as an experimental flight test engineer for the last 8 years which I believe would make me very competitive once I have more flight time.

I know that Navy TPS has both fixed and rotor wing courses and I’d die to go to either, but it seems there are more fixed wing opportunities out there. From what I’ve experienced, the USAF isn’t an option due to their color vision regulations.

Any ideas or advice that could help me are appreciated. Brainstorming some of the ideas I have are below:


-Interservice Transfer into Naval Aviation

--Can I get into fixed wing? F-18s?

--6 month deployments sounds a lot better than 12 months with the Army, even if I stay rotary wing.

--My latest communication with the aviation community manager tells me there are no aviation ISTs available; is there any other way…?


-Coast Guard Direct Commission Aviator

--Do Coast Guard aviators get a chance to go to Test Pilot School?

--How likely would I be to get a transition into fixed wing?


-Ask current employer (business jets) to transition me from engineer to the cockpit

--I intend to try this one, since it can’t hurt, but it seems very unlikely to succeed since I don’t have an ATP.


-Apply from my current position in the National Guard

--I think I’d have to go on active duty to make this work?

--Maybe I could get a fixed-wing transition first, and then apply?

--12 month deployments are hurting prospects at good family life.

 

[biskit]

Staying in the Army your options are:
1. Go active duty and apply.
2. Talk to the 58D branch manager at HRC and see if it is feasible to apply while in the guard with some sort of conditional release from the NG should you be selected.

The army has 9 seats per year at navy tps. Generally 0-2 of those are army civilian flight test engineers and the rest aviators. I assume you have read the milper message?

As an army aviator at TPS you will do the RW curriculum, which includes the basics of FW. The FW curriculum doesn't do any RW work. Which aviator curriculum you do doesn't matter, all that matters is that you graduate. Another option is you could get a job as a civilian army flight test engineer and if you're good and lucky they'll send you to TPS as a FTE.

Your experience as a flight test engineer would be a huge plus on the XP board. Even if everything else about you is average on paper, your FTE experience will put you a huge leg up on other applicants. The 1000 hour requirement can be soft... if you are just short of it you'll probably be OK. Only 500 hours - I dunno... Talk to the 58D branch manager and ask if you can apply without meeting the hour requirement, make sure you mention your FTE experience. With only 400 hours you better at least be an army pc to even ask about it. I would recommend you volunteer for a deployment or mobilization to get your hours up as quickly as possible.

There is generally a DOD instruction for aviators transferring between services. The grass isn't always greener, trust me. No way to tell how it would effect your chances of getting to TPS.

I know a lot of army guys who have gone coast guard, they all ended up flying helicopters since the coast guard leverages your helicopter experience. I think you would have significantly better chances getting to TPS from the army.

 

[bmather9]

Staying in the Army your options are:
1. Go active duty and apply.
2. Talk to the 58D branch manager at HRC and see if it is feasible to apply while in the guard with some sort of conditional release from the NG should you be selected.

The army has 9 seats per year at navy tps. Generally 0-2 of those are army civilian flight test engineers and the rest aviators. I assume you have read the milper message?

As an army aviator at TPS you will do the RW curriculum, which includes the basics of FW. The FW curriculum doesn't do any RW work. Which aviator curriculum you do doesn't matter, all that matters is that you graduate. Another option is you could get a job as a civilian army flight test engineer and if you're good and lucky they'll send you to TPS as a FTE.

Your experience as a flight test engineer would be a huge plus on the XP board. Even if everything else about you is average on paper, your FTE experience will put you a huge leg up on other applicants. The 1000 hour requirement can be soft... if you are just short of it you'll probably be OK. Only 500 hours - I dunno... Talk to the 58D branch manager and ask if you can apply without meeting the hour requirement, make sure you mention your FTE experience. With only 400 hours you better at least be an army pc to even ask about it. I would recommend you volunteer for a deployment or mobilization to get your hours up as quickly as possible.

There is generally a DOD instruction for aviators transferring between services. The grass isn't always greener, trust me. No way to tell how it would effect your chances of getting to TPS.

I know a lot of army guys who have gone coast guard, they all ended up flying helicopters since the coast guard leverages your helicopter experience. I think you would have significantly better chances getting to TPS from the army.

Thanks for the straight answer. I'm familiar with some of the info, but I haven't seen the actual milper message could you direct me to it? I've only see this article: http://www.armytimes.com/story/mili...rmy-experimental-test-pilot-program/21439467/

In this article it sounds like I'd only need 700 hours, and with a deployment coming up, I assume that counts as a 'key developmental assignment'. Hopefully it will put me much closer the 700 hour mark. I commissioned in 2009 so it sounds like I'll be in the year group window for the next 2 years, but that might make things tough. Assuming the selections happen every year around March, I won't have the minimum hours for 2016, and I'll be on a deployment during 2017. I'll likely apply in 2016 just to give it a shot, and then again, while deployed, in 2017. Any hope that I would have another chance in 2018 even if my year group is out of the window?

What about deployments for experimental test pilots? I'm hoping that the Army Acquisition Corps doesn't deploy 12 months at a time? This one is important for talking the wife into it

I know that transferring services isn't always a good solution, but it got me into the cockpit. So I am interested in looking into all options that could help me achieve this goal.

It's good to hear that you think my FTE experience will help make me competitive. I think I fit the mold pretty well on paper and in reality, but need more flight experience to be competitive. I'd be happy to go as an FTE, but would much prefer as a pilot, because I feel like that credential is much more important, and is really what I want to do. Thanks again!

 

[biskit]

The milper message will be out soon after the new fiscal year, read it and follow the instructions. You can find last year's and expect the upcoming one to be substantially similar. Being an O grade complicates it a lot. No problem applying while you're deployed. You need to talk to the guy who is listed as the O-grade contact in the milper message and ask about the NG issue before you do anything.

Deploying is not KD time, you should know that. Reference AR 600-3 for what counts as KD time.

I'm no expert, but it sounds like a longshot for your situation. If you don't make it within your window you could talk to HRC about resigning your commission and going warrant.

If you have an aversion to traveling you should not pursue the job.

 

[xj220]

I answered a lot of these questions in your other thread. But to answer some of your new ones:

-Not 100% familiar with Army test squadrons however, talking to my classmates when you graduate TPS and go to your test squadron you are now 100% acquisitions and no longer on the operational path. It sounds similar to going AEDO in the Navy. The only way that isn't true was for one of are Warrants who was early enough in his career that he could actually go back operational, but I don't know the specifics and other Army aviators please chime in.

-You really need to figure out what it is you truly want. I know you want TPS and honestly, given your situation I think staying Army is your best bet. I get you don't want 12 month deployments due to family life and that's very respectable but then you need to figure out if TPS is really that much of a priority. I won't say you can't get TPS with USCG, but that's probably your least probably option. Going Navy is your next best option and you can go fixed wing (I assume they wouldn't send you directly to helos, but I'm not 100% familiar with the transition process) but not everyone has six month deployments. Ask any of the boat guys and they can tell you stories of extended deployments, surges, etc. Not to mention work ups, dets and whatnot. There's a reason why those bonuses are $125k. Maritime (P-3, P-8) has a more regular deployment schedule that is easier on family life but if you go TPS then there's a chance you can also go UAS (Triton).

Again, ultimately you have to determine what it is your truly want and if the juice is worth the squeeze.

 

[bmather9]

The milper message will be out soon after the new fiscal year, read it and follow the instructions. You can find last year's and expect the upcoming one to be substantially similar. Being an O grade complicates it a lot. No problem applying while you're deployed. You need to talk to the guy who is listed as the O-grade contact in the milper message and ask about the NG issue before you do anything.

Deploying is not KD time, you should know that. Reference AR 600-3 for what counts as KD time.

I'm no expert, but it sounds like a longshot for your situation. If you don't make it within your window you could talk to HRC about resigning your commission and going warrant.

If you have an aversion to traveling you should not pursue the job.

Thanks for the info again, I found the milper message.

My career progression has been somewhat non-standard so far, mostly due to my transfer from the USAF, which may somewhat explain my lack of knowledge about Key Development assignments. I've been a 1LT for longer than normal and was recently picked up for CPT but am delaying my promotion, so I can stay in the line company for the upcoming deployment. Maybe this was a bad move in some ways, but this should also allow me to build more flight experience. If it's not going to workout I'll consider going warrant if that will improve my chances significantly in the future.

I agree, it's still a longshot, so my hopes won't be crushed if it doesn't workout. I still plan to have an interesting career in flight test nonetheless, whether as a pilot or an engineer.

No aversion to travelling, just a big difference between long TDY vs 12 month deployment.

I answered a lot of these questions in your other thread. But to answer some of your new ones:

-Not 100% familiar with Army test squadrons however, talking to my classmates when you graduate TPS and go to your test squadron you are now 100% acquisitions and no longer on the operational path. It sounds similar to going AEDO in the Navy. The only way that isn't true was for one of are Warrants who was early enough in his career that he could actually go back operational, but I don't know the specifics and other Army aviators please chime in.

-You really need to figure out what it is you truly want. I know you want TPS and honestly, given your situation I think staying Army is your best bet. I get you don't want 12 month deployments due to family life and that's very respectable but then you need to figure out if TPS is really that much of a priority. I won't say you can't get TPS with USCG, but that's probably your least probably option. Going Navy is your next best option and you can go fixed wing (I assume they wouldn't send you directly to helos, but I'm not 100% familiar with the transition process) but not everyone has six month deployments. Ask any of the boat guys and they can tell you stories of extended deployments, surges, etc. Not to mention work ups, dets and whatnot. There's a reason why those bonuses are $125k. Maritime (P-3, P-8) has a more regular deployment schedule that is easier on family life but if you go TPS then there's a chance you can also go UAS (Triton).

Again, ultimately you have to determine what it is your truly want and if the juice is worth the squeeze.

Sounds like what I was expecting, and what I saw when I was working flight test in the USAF; generally there, acquisition officers didn't deploy often if at all.

Figuring out what I truly want is is what I'm looking for here. All of these ideas are bit of brainstorming on my part, to find a reasonable way to continue my career in aviation in a way that will fulfill me. I think you're correct, that the Army would be my best shot at TPS from where I am right now. I work daily with former USAF and Navy test pilots and they were all former fighter guys, so talking with them began to lead me in that direction. There is one Army pilot in the bunch of test pilots, so it's probably time for me to sit down and talk with him for some advice, so I can decide if the juice is worth the squeeze. Thanks again!

 

[bmather9]

I've been communicating with the contact in the Army XP milper message and the bottom line is that I cannot apply from within the National Guard.

So it seems the Coast Guard and National Guard are not options that will give me a chance. To give myself any hope, I'll have to get on Active Duty somehow. The USAF is basically ruled out for me due to color vision requirements.

So my remaining options seem to be:

IST to Navy:
-seems to have no positions for the next 2 years, although I'll keep checking in to see if something opens up.

Active Duty Army:
-need to look further to see if this is even an option

IST to Marines:
-probably not much hope for me here, but I'll look into it

Ask my employer (business jets)
-this seems like a long shot compared to the others, since all the test pilots are TPS graduates

Any advice is appreciated. I completely understand that I may have set out to do something that just isn't going to work for me here, but I'm open to alternate paths such as other civilian employers etc...

 

[biskit]

The inter-service transfer alone is a longshot and simply transferring may/may not up your chances. Going active duty I have no idea how hard/easy. Both have the same problem of your state letting you go - they just paid your way through flight school and need to get a return on their investment.

Perhaps see if your boss will cough up money to send you to one or more short courses at TPS on FW testing?

What state are you in? Army, Navy, and AF have FTEs nation-wide and all send civilian FTEs to Ntps or AFtps. You would have to be around for some years, not be dumb, and prove yourself and even then there's a long line wanting to go and the stars would have to align just right for you. Check the OPM website - the big military FTE locations are Pax River, Edwards, and Redstone. There are many others as well as numerous places in the desert SW at all the big testing areas. Point being there is a good chance you could find a military job without having to move more than a few hours away, especially if you live near the east coast.

 

[bmather9]

The inter-service transfer alone is a longshot and simply transferring may/may not up your chances. Going active duty I have no idea how hard/easy. Both have the same problem of your state letting you go - they just paid your way through flight school and need to get a return on their investment.

Perhaps see if your boss will cough up money to send you to one or more short courses at TPS on FW testing?

What state are you in? Army, Navy, and AF have FTEs nation-wide and all send civilian FTEs to Ntps or AFtps. You would have to be around for some years, not be dumb, and prove yourself and even then there's a long line wanting to go and the stars would have to align just right for you. Check the OPM website - the big military FTE locations are Pax River, Edwards, and Redstone. There are many others as well as numerous places in the desert SW at all the big testing areas. Point being there is a good chance you could find a military job without having to move more than a few hours away, especially if you live near the east coast.

My civilian employer has previously sent FTEs to TPS short courses at Pax, but the problem I have is I'd like to go as a pilot rather than as an FTE. To do that I have to be on Active Duty to even apply. So my thought process is, if I ask to transfer out of the National Guard after returning from deployment, I will have fulfilled 75% of my commitment. I've seen other guys transfer to other states before their commitment is up, so I believe there's a decent chance they would let me go.

I know the IST is a long shot; I've already completed one from the USAF to the Army to fly. At this point, I figure it won't hurt to attempt it, since my first hurdle would be to get on Active Duty in a flying position in any service that would allow me to apply to TPS. Going Active Army might have the most hope, but if I were to go to an H-60 platform in the Navy at least my experience should still help me.

The advantages I see about the Navy are that it seems Commissioned Officers fly later into their careers. The Army makes use of Warrant Officers, so it seems uncommon for an Army O-4 to be doing much flying. With more aviation assets in general, it seems like there's more chance for me to cross-train into a new airframe that might give me more broad experience that may make me more competitive for TPS. Navy also seems to have shorter deployments from what I hear, although I'm sure this could go either way. My wife is a big advocate of this; she thinks 6 months at a time would be much better than 12 months, even if the 6 comes up more often. Feel free to shoot holes in those reasons, as they're really not built on anything too solid.

I am on the east coast now, but I spent 3 years at Edwards as a Test Conductor on Active Duty (which was fairly similar to being an FTE). Unfortunately the USAF really isn't an option because of their color vision regulations which disqualify me from TPS...even as an FTE. Although I think TPS as an FTE would be a great experience, and a very valuable credential for me, I think that I'm building great experience and have some good opportunities as an FTE where I am right now with my civilian employer. So I don't think it would be worth it for me to jump over to a government FTE job with the hopes of getting to TPS as an FTE. Pilot is what I really want, and that would be worth the effort/risk to me.

 

[biskit]

In the navy they send one XYZ pilot to tps when they need an XYZ test pilot. So if there's no need for a test pilot flying your aircraft next year then there is zero chance for you to go to tps. You will have a similarly narrow window of opportunity to get to tps in the navy as you would in the army. In other words, what aircraft you fly in the navy might completely disqualify you from going to tps - and you have no control over that! The army process is based on the whole-person concept - they find who will be the best possible test pilot. What airframe you fly will never disqualify you from tps in the army. To me that's a huge plus for the army path. The army warrant officer path has an unlimited window of opportunity so it seems the obvious choice if tps is your goal.

If your goal is to go to tps then forget about all that jazz you listed - evaluate the odds and choose the path with the best likliehood of getting to tps. A common theme among army test pilots is that being a test pilot is their #1 priority and they never worried about all that ancilliary stuff you listed. The army selection process is much more than just the application paperwork(the selection board is only the first step in the process) and will likely weed you out unless being a test pilot is your #1 goal in life.

 

[bmather9]

In the navy they send one XYZ pilot to tps when they need an XYZ test pilot. So if there's no need for a test pilot flying your aircraft next year then there is zero chance for you to go to tps. You will have a similarly narrow window of opportunity to get to tps in the navy as you would in the army. In other words, what aircraft you fly in the navy might completely disqualify you from going to tps - and you have no control over that! The army process is based on the whole-person concept - they find who will be the best possible test pilot. What airframe you fly will never disqualify you from tps in the army. To me that's a huge plus for the army path. The army warrant officer path has an unlimited window of opportunity so it seems the obvious choice if tps is your goal.

If your goal is to go to tps then forget about all that jazz you listed - evaluate the odds and choose the path with the best likliehood of getting to tps. A common theme among army test pilots is that being a test pilot is their #1 priority and they never worried about all that ancilliary stuff you listed. The army selection process is much more than just the application paperwork(the selection board is only the first step in the process) and will likely weed you out unless being a test pilot is your #1 goal in life.

Thanks for the info. I've never heard it that way about how the navy selects TPS students based on the aircraft they need test pilots for. I guess it's similar to the USAF since they seem to do something similar...bomber pilots go to the bomber test squadron after TPS etc... I'll certainly have to take that info into consideration along with the fact that I'm already in the Army, albeit the National Guard. If anyone else can weigh in on the Pros/Cons of trying to go Navy vs. Army on this I'd appreciate it.

I struggle to admit that being a test pilot is my #1 goal in life...but deep down it really is. The reason I struggle is previously that #1 goal was to be a USAF pilot and eventually test pilot, but that was taken away from me, for no fault of my own. I now believe it's generally not a good idea to covet something so much which is out of your control. So my goal here is to put myself in a position to get selected, and I have a lot of confidence that I can get selected. Most of the ancillary stuff was focused towards making sure I get enough of the right experience to get selected. If I don't make it in the window for a commissioned officer, I've been interested in reverting to warrant from day 1.

 

[Ralph]

I think there is someone on here who did the opposite. He was commissioned in the Navy and went Guard WO to keep flying.

 

[bmather9]

I think there is someone on here who did the opposite. He was commissioned in the Navy and went Guard WO to keep flying.

He's probably not the only person to do so, but one of the IPs in my unit has done this.

 

[biskit]

but that was taken away from me, for no fault of my own. I now believe it's generally not a good idea to covet something so much which is out of your control.

For a job so specific and with so few people, becoming a test pilot is often times as much luck as it is skill. Army O grades have a very narrow window to get there, generally 2 attempts to apply. Timing, deployments, PCSs, PME, family, and anything else you can think of can factor in to derail your plans. If you don't make it your top priority you'll probably never get there.

Stupid army sayings apply here: You miss all the shots you don't take. Make them tell you no. Apply early, apply often.

 

[mareid2]

I'm almost positive that now you are winged/rated by a military service, you actually meet the requirements for flying AF again. I stumbled on that bit of information while applying for the ETP but you should only need a Class II after you've completed training. I think they added that disclaimer in there to account for anyone that is currently flying that wouldn't meet the new requirements after they were implemented. Don't know that I'd consider going back after the hell that it took to get away, but just might be another option to explore.