Officer Dynamics in a Flying Squadron

[e6bflyer]

You want culture shock, go from a P-3 flight station to V-1 Divo in the span of 2-3 months. Identity crisis! I once literally had an E-4 injure himself jumping up too fast from "my" computer onboard at the mere sight of a khaki walking in. On the other hand his counterpart E-4 FE had no problem rolling his eyes and sighing at any non-essential task requiring the natops manual during flight.

Oh man. So true.

I went from the E-6 community where some of the flight engineers are on a first name basis with the JOs to VT land with no E's to the boat where E's pin themselves to the bulkhead and wait for you to go through knee knockers. When I would bring my guys in the gear pit a quesadilla from the grill you would have thought I handed them a $100 bill.
Quite a different mentality.

Here's the thing, though. The culture in an AF guard unit isn't the same as it is in a squadron or on a ship. There are probably guys there that have been deploying around the world together for 15 years. Families get to know each other. Wives invite each other over for dinner and Christmas. They all work civilian jobs where they do go by first names. It is a totally different dynamic. To compare it to anything else is not right.

I say just attempt to invite your buds to an offsite gathering in an unofficial capacity. If they support it then great. If not, it probably isn't fitting with the norms of the unit.

 

[Gatordev]

Here's the thing, though. The culture in an AF guard unit isn't the same as it is in a squadron or on a ship. There are probably guys there that have been deploying around the world together for 15 years. Families get to know each other. Wives invite each other over for dinner and Christmas. They all work civilian jobs where they do go by first names. It is a totally different dynamic. To compare it to anything else is not right.

The problem is what you describe isn't that much different from a Navy Reserve unit, and I haven't personally seen, nor heard of, the problem mentioned here. Even Reservists (in the Navy) understand the hierarchy, even if it's a little different than what we all know to be reality outside the main gate.

 

[ZomboNation]

There are probably guys there that have been deploying around the world together for 15 years. Families get to know each other. Wives invite each other over for dinner and Christmas.

Yes, and my thought is that its great...to a degree.

Even Reservists (in the Navy) understand the hierarchy, even if it's a little different than what we all know to be reality outside the main gate.

Not having flown in a Navy Reserve unit, I can't speak to this, but at least they "get it" as far as knowing a hierarchy exists.

I say just attempt to invite your buds to an offsite gathering in an unofficial capacity. If they support it then great. If not, it probably isn't fitting with the norms of the unit.

This I will continue running with. I guess it still continues to boggle my mind why this O vs E concept is so distasteful to some folks.

 

[wink]

The problem is what you describe isn't that much different from a Navy Reserve unit, and I haven't personally seen, nor heard of, the problem mentioned here. Even Reservists (in the Navy) understand the hierarchy, even if it's a little different than what we all know to be reality outside the main gate.

My experience as well. It is a consummate professional who can keep one food in both the civilian/non drill first name world and the other in the Navy. Sometimes, with some guys, it was almost a wink and a nod, but the profession veneer of respect for the rank and culture was always there. No one was ever butt hurt near as I could see. I used to fly in the airline with a guy that was my Commodore. It was all first names, locker room humor, etc. But on a drill weekend it was completely different, for both of us.

 

[Flash]

Seems like in the Air Force culture, an E9 and an O6 are equivalent. It's worth remembering that these guys are just doing what's normal within their service culture, but it should not be tolerated. Stun them first with a "shipmate," then politely put them back in their place.

It is worse in the Army with Command Sergeants Major, they often seem to outrank many O6's. Almost everyone buys into it too, one of the many Army Colonels on staff described trying to convince the sailors on the USS Constitution that they shouldn't give him the courtesies but instead should give the Sergeant Major of the Army, who he was visiting the ship with, all the courtesies of a three-star since that is what he is equivalent to (for some protocol purposes he is but nothing more). We did have another Colonel who would mercilessly mock them though.

 

[robav8r]

. . . one of the many Army Colonels on staff described trying to convince the sailors on the USS Constitution that they shouldn't give him the courtesies but instead should give the Sergeant Major of the Army, who he was visiting the ship with, all the courtesies of a three-star since that is what he is equivalent to . . .

YHGTBSM !!!

 

[samb]

That's typical in the Army. It's quite a culture shock for some.

 

[Flash]

YHGTBSM !!!

It is even cited in the Wikipedia entry for the SMA, "While the SMA is a non-commissioned officer, the billet is the protocol equivalent of a lieutenant general". The difference of where someone is supposed to be in a receiving line and what their actual rank is was lost on the vast majority of guys who argued this.

That's typical in the Army. It's quite a culture shock for some.

The CSM's and other senior NCO's didn't really like it when us Navy guys didn't play by their reindeer games, too bad for them.

 

[busdriver]

Dude, as a fellow AF type that deals with this here's my thoughts/experiences (caveat, I'm AD only):

-If it's a "family" type event with kids and wives; it's all ranks, let's face it that's more about the spouses anyway.
-If it's a naming ceremony type thing, you'll have to decide what's appropriate for your unit. What crosses the line in that unit, guard babies are weird since they don't move and live with each other for decades.
-If you want to do an O only thing, plan it as a break out type thing; either before or after an all ranks gathering. That way you're not excluding the E's, you're just saying we need our time away and so do you. The other option is to plan an O gathering and let the SNCOs know the timeline, that way they can "crash" the party at the right time. The last option I mentioned worked great during my time on Okinawa.

 

[azguy]

Dude, as a fellow AF type that deals with this here's my thoughts/experiences (caveat, I'm AD only):

-If it's a "family" type event with kids and wives; it's all ranks, let's face it that's more about the spouses anyway.
-If it's a naming ceremony type thing, you'll have to decide what's appropriate for your unit. What crosses the line in that unit, guard babies are weird since they don't move and live with each other for decades.
-If you want to do an O only thing, plan it as a break out type thing; either before or after an all ranks gathering. That way you're not excluding the E's, you're just saying we need our time away and so do you. The other option is to plan an O gathering and let the SNCOs know the timeline, that way they can "crash" the party at the right time. The last option I mentioned worked great during my time on Okinawa.

Just want to clarify... When you talk about letting NCOs "crash" the party, that is for any/all O functions, or for Holiday party type events?

 

[Brett327]

I've seen CPOs "crash" a green light. This was right before a change of command and was pre-coordinated by the XO/CMC. Frankly, it was a nice touch to have the CPOs swing by to say farewell to the outgoing CO.

 

[Hotdogs]

It is worse in the Army with Command Sergeants Major, they often seem to outrank many O6's. Almost everyone buys into it too, one of the many Army Colonels on staff described trying to convince the sailors on the USS Constitution that they shouldn't give him the courtesies but instead should give the Sergeant Major of the Army, who he was visiting the ship with, all the courtesies of a three-star since that is what he is equivalent to (for some protocol purposes he is but nothing more). We did have another Colonel who would mercilessly mock them though.

There are big differences between particular units in the Army unlike the Air Force. Some units in the Army (82nd Airborne, 75th Ranger Rgt) can be just as nazi about customs and courtesies as Marines and you wouldn't see that type of stuff. Active vs ARNG vs Reserves has a big difference as well. Worst by far of any service is the Air Force, to the extent that Marine Officers aboard Eglin AFB a couple years ago were told to stop correcting airmen for failing to salute and render proper customs. Supposedly they were told to "take it easy" on the airmen.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Overhearing USAF E-1s call USAF officers by their first name at the 560th during T-38 training still makes my skin crawl. Yet it was business as usual to them. I don't understand the philosphy behind their refusal to follow military decorum like the other services.

 

[Flash]

There are big differences between particular units in the Army unlike the Air Force. Some units in the Army (82nd Airborne, 75th Ranger Rgt) can be just as nazi about customs and courtesies as Marines and you wouldn't see that type of stuff. Active vs ARNG vs Reserves has a big difference as well. Worst by far of any service is the Air Force, to the extent that Marine Officers aboard Eglin AFB a couple years ago were told to stop correcting airmen for failing to salute and render proper customs. Supposedly they were told to "take it easy" on the airmen.

While I know there are significant differences between different units/branches in the Army the folks I served with came from a variety of backgrounds, more than enough from infantry/airborne/Ranger and the CSM stupidity crossed all lines from Civil Affairs to 'Airborne!'. Incidentally the one Colonel who mercilessly mocked them was a tanker and was gleefully assisted by a calvary LTC.

 

[robav8r]

Worst by far of any service is the Air Force, to the extent that Marine Officers aboard Eglin AFB a couple years ago were told to stop correcting airmen for failing to salute and render proper customs. Supposedly they were told to "take it easy" on the airmen.

Overhearing USAF E-1s call USAF officers by their first name at the 560th during T-38 training still makes my skin crawl. Yet it was business as usual to them. I don't understand the philosphy behind their refusal to follow military decorum like the other services.

Just more evidence that when Red Dawn finally happens, the Chi-Com's will have a very easy go of it . . .