OCS Changes

[DocT]

I'm not in the Navy, but I recently (two weeks ago) had the opportunity to ask an AOCS DI what the differences were compared to Navy OCS and Marine OCS, what he liked and didn't like, etc. He told me he didn't feel like they had the opportunity to push what he felt was the proper amount of stress on the candidates down in P-cola. He went on to say that it was the Navy who didn't want the DI's to push it down there. The Gunny felt like the Navy wanted to 'militarize' the candidates a bit and then stamp their tickets.

I've never been through AOCS so I'm not saying this is how it is down there, but it is what I heard. This does seem to jive with what I'm reading in some of the above posts. Any thoughts from those who have been there on this?

Semper Fi, Doc

 

[HAL Pilot]

DocT,

This is just opposite of the old AOCS days. Back than, we had the DIs from day 1 until commissioning. The DIs liked it better than Marine OCS (we had many who had been at both) because there were "no rules" and they could "use their imaginations" more. They said Marine OCS was physically harder (because of the road marches, 3 mile PFT run, etc.), but AOCS was mentally harder. They also said the AOCS came close to Marine OCS physically because AOCS had less rules on the use of PT as a "learning tool". They were told by the Navy to put as much mental and physical pressure on the candidates as possible to see if they broke. The idea was if you could not handle these pressures/stresses, there was no way you could handle the pressures/stresses in an aircraft that is being shot at or failing around you. In AOCS, the typical class commissioned somewhere between 30% to 40% of the candidates that started. Most were weeded out by the DIs, not the academics.

I got this talking to the DIs after I was commissioned. As I have said before, I was an Army Drill Sergeant. After I got commissioned, I saw a couple of the DIs at a bar off base and bought them a few beers. We compared notes.

 

[wink]

DocT,

This is just opposite of the old AOCS days. Back than, we had the DIs from day 1 until commissioning. The DIs liked it better than Marine OCS (we had many who had been at both) because there were "no rules" and they could "use their imaginations" more. They said Marine OCS was physically harder (because of the road marches, 3 mile PFT run, etc.), but AOCS was mentally harder. They also said the AOCS came close to Marine OCS physically because AOCS had less rules on the use of PT as a "learning tool". They were told by the Navy to put as much mental and physical pressure on the candidates as possible to see if they broke. The idea was if you could not handle these pressures/stresses, there was no way you could handle the pressures/stresses in an aircraft that is being shot at or failing around you. In AOCS, the typical class commissioned somewhere between 30% to 40% of the candidates that started. Most were weeded out by the DIs, not the academics.

I got this talking to the DIs after I was commissioned. As I have said before, I was an Army Drill Sergeant. After I got commissioned, I saw a couple of the DIs at a bar off base and bought them a few beers. We compared notes.

Exactly the way I have heard it explained to me when I was in AOCS Regimental HQ as an INDOC Candidate Officer. An AOCS assignment for a USMC DI was a plum assignment for all the reasons stated above. Usually the best DIs the Marines produced went to Pcola.

 

[DocT]

Thanks for your replies Gents. It's a shame for the candidates and the Navy that AOCS is not the institution it once was. The DI I spoke with hated his tour down there and couldn't wait for the transition to Newport in the hopes he could get back to the infantry sooner. I sensed a good deal of frustration on his part at how things are being done down there these days.

Just out of curiosity HAL, what's roughly the time frame you're referring to as the 'old days'?

Semper Fi, Doc

 

[SteveG75]

Thanks for your replies Gents. It's a shame for the candidates and the Navy that AOCS is not the institution it once was. The DI I spoke with hated his tour down there and couldn't wait for the transition to Newport in the hopes he could get back to the infantry sooner. I sensed a good deal of frustration on his part at how things are being done down there these days.

Just out of curiosity HAL, what's roughly the time frame you're referring to as the 'old days'?

Semper Fi, Doc

Hey Doc,

Remember it is not AOCS anymore and has not been for a number of years. It is now just OCS when the Navy combined the Newport OCS with the Pensacola AOCS. AOCS was tough, OCS was not. And I guess, still is not.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Just out of curiosity HAL, what's roughly the time frame you're referring to as the 'old days'?

Semper Fi, Doc

I went in early 1983.

 

[BlkPny]

Aocs

I went in early 1983.

New guy.

 

[FlyingBeagle]

Question for OCS grads and more experienced Navy guys, why do we need Marines to train our officers? If Chiefs are already there why not expand their role and give them the training necessary to do the job as well as the Marines? We don't have Marines at bootcamp, so why OCS?
I don't know about other ROTC units, but mine was run almost entirely by the MOI and AMOI and I never understood why. It always seemed to me like we had them running things just because we didn't care enough to do it ourselves.

 

[zab1001]

These are just a few of my thoughts, a lowly Ensign

there's your next airwarriors t-shirt

(credit to squeeze for the best smiley ever)

 

[MSkinsATC]

Marine drill instructors

Question for OCS grads and more experienced Navy guys, why do we need Marines to train our officers? If Chiefs are already there why not expand their role and give them the training necessary to do the job as well as the Marines? We don't have Marines at bootcamp, so why OCS?
I don't know about other ROTC units, but mine was run almost entirely by the MOI and AMOI and I never understood why. It always seemed to me like we had them running things just because we didn't care enough to do it ourselves.

Flying Beagle,
The Marine DI is a spitting image of perfection. They always look good, they always dress good and not to mention they are in great physical condition. They are an example of what you need to be as an officer. Im not sure if you have looked around at some of the chiefs in teh Navy, but some of them are pretty disgusting. They also do it because its a stress builder, what sounds worse Marine Corps Drill Instructor or Navy Chief.....yeah thought so. Just there subtle ways of truely training you and hopefully molding you into a good junior officer.

 

[FlyingBeagle]

I wasn't saying any Chief would do, just like not all Marines would make good DIs. I think if we wanted to do it, we could make it happen.

They also do it because its a stress builder, what sounds worse Marine Corps Drill Instructor or Navy Chief.....yeah thought so.

Maybe true, but still a generalization. I think a SEAL Chief sounds "worse" than a Marine DI with a support MOS. Before everyone says "we can't afford to have SEALs teach OCS," that was just an example. Say the Marines allowed it, what would you think of a Chief who went through Marine DI school? Would that be good enough, or does being in the Navy disqualify him automatically in your eyes?

 

[KSUFLY]

I know that the DIs yell and wear the big smokey the bear hat for intimidation. However, the chiefs don't have to yell or wear goofy hats. All they do is quietly say, "get in the grass" and you know the pain is about to begin.

 

[heynowlookout]

There are definitely some chiefs who can lay it down. I'm thinking of one currently there with the same last name as a long running cartoon who gave me one of the top three thrashings I took at OCS.

SC: Are those washed khakis you're wearing candidate?
Candidate Ensign Me: No, Senior Chief.(Had my nice candio service khakis on)
SC: I suggest you get them on. You've got five minutes.
(Quick pause while I turn around and start sprinting back to my room)
SC: Four minutes

What followed was a glorious 20-25 minutes in the rose garden made all the more special because it was a Saturday during candio phase.

 

[Sly1978]

This thread is pretty amusing. I think this is a great example of what happens throughout the Navy (if you don't believe me, ask anyone who graduated from any major Navy school or training curriculum). The "old school" guys (in this case that apparently includes anyone who graduated more than a month ago) will ALWAYS complain about how easy the "new guys" have it. That goes for the Academy, OCS, Primary Flight School, NNPS, Aircrew school, wherever. It isn't just particular to the Navy. As far as I know, the Air Force and Army are the same way.
Having said that, I must say that from what I've seen (which I'll admit isn't as much as some of you Salty Dogs out there) I have to agree with MSkinsATC. Only I'll go further. I would say that if you took an average recent OCS grad (middle third of his class) and put him side by side with an average NROTC and Academy grad, you will find that the OCS guy is in better physical shape, has better military bearing, and looks sharper than his counterparts. Even with all the changes.
However, you will probably also find that the OCS grad has very little in the way of true leadership skills or knowledge about how the "real" Navy actually works. When dealing with his subordinates, he will either jump to his feet every time anyone higher than an E-5 walks into the room, or he will try to bully and yell his way into the hearts of the enlisted men. Having talked to some of the people responsible for the changes to OCS, that is what they are trying to remedy. OCS was doing a fantastic job turning great Marines. The graduates were tough, sharp, and perfect followers. Unfortunately, they lacked a lot of the leadership skills required of good officers. Don't get me wrong, there were still fine officers that came out of OCS, but there was definite room for improvement. The thought process was that the old way of doing things was getting rid of far more "good" officers than the "bad" officers being let through by the new system.
I'm not sure if the changes they are making are the right ones, but I do think that somehow, the Navy will survive. As far as the DI's go, I'm not sure if some of them would be satisfied unless they could outright kill candidates they don't like.

 

[DocT]

OCS was doing a fantastic job turning great Marines. The graduates were tough, sharp, and perfect followers. Unfortunately, they lacked a lot of the leadership skills required of good officers.

Agreed, but isn't that why every Marine Officer attends TBS prior to reporting to their first command?