O4 List

[MasterBates]

The happiness over command thing. I'm not Kbay. I've been on my own special crap for a long time, but here was my take on it.

I went and did the hard jobs (NATOPS, QAO, AOPS) and did well, and didn't fare any better in the long run than the guys who skated. Luck and timing were not there, even though my performance in the "Hard Jobs" was. (was a JG for AOPS and a good chunk of QAO round 1.. so it didn't help my LT FITREPS any).

I saw LTs and LCDRs who I liked and respected, take the hard job, do the hardship tour, and not only not make LCDR/DH/CDR/Command, but get absolutely no love on the backside from BUPERS. Oh, you did an IA to Iraq? And did well? Well you are gonna get SAR Whidbey vice the SWTI slot you were promised, and we're going to IA you AGAIN for your troubles. That was a guy who left a HSL squadron as the #3 EP (35 LTs to put this in perspective.. #3 EP in HSL could easily be #1 in HS, VFA, or any other 'small' wardroom)

I've seen friends personal lives crumble because their family just couldn't take a 'competitive' shore tour, followed by an overseas dissasoch, only to end up in a hell hole for a "filler" job, then to not make DH and be exiled to another shite place (El Centro).

I have many friends who decided to not blindly follow the path, especially if it was looking like the luck and timing shit was not working, even with stellar performance.

 

[Gatordev]

Serious question: I get the whole "no shit jobs for me" attitude. And I understand the desire to stay in the cockpit, A/C etc. But I'm curious at what point in your career(s) - [not just you KB], doing hard sea duty, overseas duty, (your favorite corner of hell job) became "shit" jobs which made the sacrifices to your family untenable. Did you join the service with this attitude or did it evolve over time from your own, personal experiences. We have all met the "I'm the next CNO" types sporting their fresh butter bars and we have seen the "I'm just along for the ride" types too. Just curious how the "I'm choosing happiness over command" mentality evolved . . . .

IMO, some of the problem here is defining what "shit jobs" or "hard tours" actually means to people. For me, it wasn't about overseas duty, it was two main things, in order of importance (to me):

1) not going back to my community. By not going back, I was able to skip 2), but I just didn't want to go back. And while I have since worked and flown with the community, I'm not actually in it. Something I'm thankful for almost daily now in my current job.

2) I didn't really want to take a non-flying tour after my committment was up, preferably, I wanted to go fly something gray again. Once my initial contract was up, I had done my time and I wanted it to be on as much of my terms as I could manage. Sure I couldn't/didn't get everything I wanted and if I couldn't have swung it, I was ready to walk and find other things to do. I have no doubt I would have learned great things doing a boat tour (I'd hope, anyway), but I learned other great things by jumping right into a flying DH tour.

I'm sure other people's priorities and desires are different than my own. But that's what worked for me. And along the way I got to continue to lead great sailors (and some not so great).

 

[HAL Pilot]

To answer robav8r's question,

1st shore tour had my RAG orders that would have kept me collocated with my wife changed when Moffet's P-3 Admiral was told to send a RAG instructor to Dam Neck to teach ASWOC school as the SWOs were complaining they weren't getting quality. I was the next incoming NFO. It was sold to me by an Admiral I respected as a hard fill community billet and that the community would take care of me for accepting. The next detailer just laughed and called me a fool.

The day I checked into my DH tour, the CO told me there were too many O-4s and since I was west coast background he didn't know me where he knew the other O4s. I wouldn't be MO, OPSO or breakout. Sorry but someone has to fallout. Flash forward 2 years, knnowing that I will be a non-select for O5 after the board in 8 months due to my DH tour, my former CVN CO who is now Commander 6th Fleet (3 star) gets me orders to a joint job at Southcom in an O6 billet so I would get O5 on my 2nd look. Again not collocated with my wife & kid as it is unaccompanied to Panama. 18 months later after continuous 12 hour days 6 days a week with 4 to 6 hours on most Sundays, a divorce and more than 40 days of leave lost due to not being able to take any, I had enough and applied for the early retirement being offered. After being accepted for the early requirement, I get calls from one of the twin brother VP Admirals (3 star) and my former CVN CO (now a 4 star) saying I should pull my retirement papers that day as I had been selected for O5 and was about to be removed from the list if I didn't (the list was not out but awaiting approval). When I asked what my future would be, it was another CVN tour (18 months) followed by a joint staff tour in DC. I chose to be removed from the O5 list and retire because I had no desire for another 5 years of no life outside of work. I was an easy choice.

 

[HAL Pilot]

You make it seem like every Skipper has to do that to be successful. In my view, the challenge of that kind of leadership is to be an effective Skipper while NOT having to sell your soul or putting your own career interests ahead of those you're leading or your family. Not every guy in the front office is capable or willing to do that, but I've also been lucky enough to be around several who do pull that off. I think it's more constructive to discuss those aspects of being a Skipper rather than condemning the entire lot of them as spineless soul-sellers. It's not really fair to the good ones out there who are busting their ass to make a difference to the Navy and their people.

My experience was that for every CO that made it without selling their soul, there were 4 or 5 COs that were soul-less. It's not constructive to discus just the few good ones without also discussing the majority soul-sellers. It gives a skewed picture.

From what I read on here and from the friends I have still on active duty, it's only getting worse.

I enjoyed my Navy career and I'm not bitter. I made my choices and accept the results. But I knew when it was time to call it quits and leave. I'm also realistic and understand that to succeed (i.e. promote above O5 and/or be a CO), you have to be willing to make sacrifices to your family life, general QOL and even your integrity that many (including myself) are not willing to make.

 

[Renegade One]

Whole heap of posts above: Too much for me to care enough about to try and explain myself. I guess my bottom line will always be "It was all I ever really wanted to do". That worked...and STILL works... for me...AND for my family, thank you all very much.
You should all do precisely what's in your heart and BEST for you. More Navy? Great. No more Navy? Thanks for being a part of it...best of luck in all things. There is no merit, however, in disparaging those who get promoted or choose to stay and find out the art of the possible, and what comes next.

 

[robav8r]

. . . . send a RAG instructor to Dam Neck to teach ASWOC school . . . . . The next detailer just laughed and called me a fool . . . . . CO told me there were too many O-4s and since I was west coast background he didn't know me where he knew the other O4s I wouldn't be MO, OPSO or breakout . . . . . . orders to a joint job at Southcom in an O6 billet . . . . . not collocated with my wife & kid as it is unaccompanied to Panama . . . . . . . 18 months later after continuous 12 hour days 6 days a week with 4 to 6 hours on most Sundays, a divorce and more than 40 days of leave lost due to not being able to take any . . . . . selected for O5 . . . . . . . . another CVN tour (18 months) followed by a joint staff tour in DC.

Yep, you definitely endured some pain there HAL. Sounds like your second career is making up for the sacrifices you were forced to make in the first though.

 

[revan1013]

It's tough being the AW 'Dinosaur', sometimes I wonder if I really have much worthwhile left to contribute here...sigh.
BzB

Don't say that.

I for one am glad to have you and others who served before on this forum. History is important, as are traditions and knowing where we once were. Forgetting or ignoring history is probably one of the single-biggest mistakes societies can ever make.

Plus, I like hearing those sea stories from the glory days!

 

[HAL Pilot]

There is no merit, however, in disparaging those who get promoted or choose to stay and find out the art of the possible, and what comes next.

It depends on how they conducted themselves while getting promoted and finding out what comes next. I know some great former COs, CAPTs and Admirals that are great guys who never sold out. Unfortunately, too many do not conduct themselves well and this seems to be the norm.

 

[Brett327]

My experience was that for every CO that made it without selling their soul, there were 4 or 5 COs that were soul-less. It's not constructive to discus just the few good ones without also discussing the majority soul-sellers. It gives a skewed picture.

From what I read on here and from the friends I have still on active duty, it's only getting worse.

I enjoyed my Navy career and I'm not bitter. I made my choices and accept the results. But I knew when it was time to call it quits and leave. I'm also realistic and understand that to succeed (i.e. promote above O5 and/or be a CO), you have to be willing to make sacrifices to your family life, general QOL and even your integrity that many (including myself) are not willing to make.

I respect that and understand there are lots of reasons that people make their various career choices. It does seem like some folks are predisposed to cast a career path they chose not to pursue (like being a CO) in an unduly negative light so as to make their own choices seem more positive. I find that outlook unfortunate. It's not a zero sum game we're playing here.

 

[Hozer]

One of the best threads in years...

 

[phrogpilot73]

It does seem like some folks are predisposed to cast a career path they chose not to pursue (like being a CO) in an unduly negative light so as to make their own choices seem more positive. I find that outlook unfortunate.

I think most of us that do think that way, are not doing it because we want to make our own choices more positive. I think it's because we saw enough bad COs or XOs, and enough of our anything at all costs (except being a competent pilot/officer) peers, who did and still are getting promoted, for us to really realize that as HAL said, for every 1 good CO - there's probably 4 or 5 that have sold their souls to get there. Thanks but no thanks - not the career for me!

 

[robav8r]

. . . . for every 1 good CO - there's probably 4 or 5 that have sold their souls to get there.

So is the cost-benefit ratio of achieving that "1 out of 4 or 5 CO's" too hard in todays environment?

 

[scoober78]

Unfortunately, too many do not conduct themselves well and this seems to be the norm.

I don't know if it's the norm per se, but it's certainly not more than a standard deviation away from it. In my "outside the TRACOM" experience, I've had two stellar skippers...guys I'd follow through hell and buy a drink for on arrival...one terrible and two "meh"...just one guys biased opinion...

As for disparaging...if it's truly just disparaging, then yes, I don't have a lot of time for it...but I do think there is some merit in saying "this guy was an asshole, and here's why". Like most things in life, we learn to maximize our leadership ability by the examples we see...good and bad. There's as much value in sharing the bad as there is in reveling in the good.

 

[brownshoe]

Don't say that.

I for one am glad to have you and others who served before on this forum. History is important, as are traditions and knowing where we once were. Forgetting or ignoring history is probably one of the single-biggest mistakes societies can ever make.

Plus, I like hearing those sea stories from the glory days!

You have no idea! But see, I’m blackmailing BzB and Banty now and therefore can’t ‘spill the beans’. However, if either misses a payment….

 

[Brett327]

There seem to be two themes here. One being the idea of "selling your soul" by taking lots of hard jobs and thus sacrificing personal QOL, family time, etc. I get that part. The other "selling your soul" part seems to be that some people have had a lot of bad experiences with poor front office leadership/personalities/etc. I guess I don't understand why this would make anyone less inclined to pursue being a CO. It seems like, in some people's minds, since some are bad, anyone would have to become just as bad to do the job. I think there's a logical disconnect with this kind of thinking.

It's also interesting (and telling) to see how people's personal experiences with good and bad COs has influenced whether they have an optimistic or pessimistic view of COs in general. It would be interesting to study the actualy correlation between people's overall attitude towards their various COs through their careers and how that affects whether these people then go on to become COs themselves.