New Working Uniforms

[Angry]

For several reasons, which I'll cover below.
We have coveralls for exceptionally dirty work that would soil the NWUs, so I'm not sure what you're driving at here. They're even provided at no cost to the sailor.

You don't do manual labor. Some of our men do. Those sailors are afforded coveralls as organizational clothing, even in port. And if they're not, then you can fix that. However, the majority of sailors don't do work in the course of a normal day that you describe above.

Because our public image and public relations actually matters. We like it when towns welcome military bases, not shun them because it brings in greaseballs who walk around in ripped clothing. We like it when people think of the military as a worthy profession from all walks of life, not something you do when you are impoverished or you can't make it in another job. We've actually made a lot of headway as an organization in the last couple decades in this area. Presenting a neat and orderly appearance in public is part of that image.

Aside from that, putting on something you can be proud of raises morale. The NWU Type Is were better than utilities, but missed the mark a bit in this case. I don't hear any of those snickers about Type IIIs. You're deriding uniform changes away from a uniform that looks like a prison uniform as someone who didn't have to wear them. The fact of the matter is that they were overwhelmingly unpopular. Aside from being uncomfortable for most people, our men just want to be able to stop for gas and maybe some groceries on the way home without being screamed at, and they don't want to spend 30 minutes a day pressing their uniforms when they spend 60-80 hour on the ship in-port or 50+ hours a week at sea standing watch. That's not a lot to ask.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want working uniforms to be allowed to be worn in town (which I think we all do), then they have to be presentable for the reasons that I detailed above. And again, if your sailors are painting or working with grease in NWUs, your command is doing it wrong.

Why do you need the MCPON to come do it when you could just do it yourself?

When it came to utilities, the goat locker was mostly enforcing the rules of the time.

I don't know how things work in your community, but in mine, I don't sit on my ass in an air conditioned office and let my sailors get dirty. I can't do the same work they do, but when the aircraft needs to be cleaned and the wash rack is down, I'm out there scrubbing with everyone else. I've spent hours removing floor boards with a screwdriver on det so my maintainers don't feel like all they do is fix the stuff I break. I load buoys on and off the aircraft alongside my AOs with the door open in 100 degree heat. If you haven't done whatever the sub community version of this is, you should probably ask yourself why.

In an aviation squadron, the majority of your personnel are in maintenance; they are doing exactly the types of things that get you dirty or sweaty on a daily basis. They are usually doing it in either extreme heat or extreme cold. My entire squadron deployed to 5th Fleet in 2014 without any organizational clothing because "funding wasn't available". Ever worn dark blue NWUs and black leather steel toes outdoors in Bahrain in July? In 2016 we were in Misawa trying to de-ice aircraft in the middle of a snow storm without winter parkas because big Navy couldn't figure out how to fulfill the supply backlog. Don't tell me that proper clothing items are available and that I can fix it - that's flat out bullshit.

As for your public perception argument - I don't look at civilians wearing stained dickies and work boots as "impoverished greaseballs", so I don't think most civilians would look at service members and think that either. If you do that might be a different issue. And I never said dungarees should come back - I just said looking good shouldn't be a driving factor for the new uniform. Scroll up and you'll see I advocated for the USCG working uniforms because they are everything I mentioned earlier - comfortable, functional, and safe.

BTW you think people were proud of wearing blueberries and they increased morale? Who have you been talking to? Everyone I know hates/d that uniform. Look like shit, fit like shit, ridiculously fucking expensive for what you get, and melted to your skin. Flight suits look cool because of the job they are associated with - objectively they are an ill-fitting fire retardant onesie with velcro patches. Nothing about it screams professional - but people know its military and that's what they respect about it, not the fact that it looks nice.

 

[Spekkio]

I don't know how things work in your community, but in mine, I don't sit on my ass in an air conditioned office and let my sailors get dirty. I can't do the same work they do, but when the aircraft needs to be cleaned and the wash rack is down, I'm out there scrubbing with everyone else. I've spent hours removing floor boards with a screwdriver on det so my maintainers don't feel like all they do is fix the stuff I break. I load buoys on and off the aircraft alongside my AOs with the door open in 100 degree heat. If you haven't done whatever the sub community version of this is, you should probably ask yourself why.

There are about a dozen reasons I've never done anything like this that starts with why you think there's a dichotomy between "sitting on my ass in an air conditioned office" and loading equipment onto the ship, but let's not turn this thread into a community dick measuring contest.

In an aviation squadron, the majority of your personnel are in maintenance; they are doing exactly the types of things that get you dirty or sweaty on a daily basis. They are usually doing it in either extreme heat or extreme cold. My entire squadron deployed to 5th Fleet in 2014 without any organizational clothing because "funding wasn't available". Ever worn dark blue NWUs and black leather steel toes outdoors in Bahrain in July? In 2016 we were in Misawa trying to de-ice aircraft in the middle of a snow storm without winter parkas because big Navy couldn't figure out how to fulfill the supply backlog. Don't tell me that proper clothing items are available and that I can fix it - that's flat out bullshit.

A) Your suppo lied to you B) I guarantee if you barked high enough you could've gotten your men coveralls to do the work you are describing and C) I haven't experienced anything like this because we don't bring NWUs with us when we deploy. We just wear coveralls and bring SDBs because of space concerns and, well, carrying two working uniforms while deployed is unnecessary. If you're walking off the pier, you'll be in civvies due to FP concerns anyway.

As for your public perception argument - I don't look at civilians wearing stained dickies and work boots as "impoverished greaseballs", so I don't think most civilians would look at service members and think that either. If you do that might be a different issue. And I never said dungarees should come back - I just said looking good shouldn't be a driving factor for the new uniform. Scroll up and you'll see I advocated for the USCG working uniforms because they are everything I mentioned earlier - comfortable, functional, and safe.

I also generally don't see civilians going to the mall in stained dickies and work boots, nor do I generally see them going to restaurants or most anywhere else except for maybe a gas station.

We're now going in circles - the enlisted community wants the flexibility to wear their working uniforms out in town to various places without getting chewed out. In order to support that, their uniforms need to look presentable. I don't know why this is a hard concept for you.

BTW you think people were proud of wearing blueberries and they increased morale? Who have you been talking to? Everyone I know hates/d that uniform. Look like shit, fit like shit, ridiculously fucking expensive for what you get, and melted to your skin. Flight suits look cool because of the job they are associated with - objectively they are an ill-fitting fire retardant onesie with velcro patches. Nothing about it screams professional - but people know its military and that's what they respect about it, not the fact that it looks nice.

The blueberries aren't perfect but are greatly preferred over utilities. When you start comparing utilities or NWUs to flight suits you are losing me - most enlisted servicemembers don't get to wear flight suits. I can't speak to how comfortable flight suits are but maybe you want to write CNO and suggest expanding who can wear them if they are all that and a bag of chips.

FWIW, I'd have no issue if the Navy allowed blue coveralls to be worn on base or in town provided they had no rips or obvious signs of wear. Not difficult to keep a reserve "for commuting wear only" pair of coveralls.

 

[707guy]

- the enlisted community wants the flexibility to wear their working uniforms out in town to various places without getting chewed out.

Sounds like the issue is over zealous persecution of enlisted folks for wearing a "working uniform" out in town vs. what that "working uniform" looks like. Had a guy in my squadron go to mast for stopping at a gas station while wearing dungarees on the way home....from Cecil Field.....over 30 years ago. I guess some things never change.

 

[Goodfou]

I don't know how things work in your community, but in mine, I don't sit on my ass in an air conditioned office and let my sailors get dirty. I can't do the same work they do, but when the aircraft needs to be cleaned and the wash rack is down, I'm out there scrubbing with everyone else. I've spent hours removing floor boards with a screwdriver on det so my maintainers don't feel like all they do is fix the stuff I break. I load buoys on and off the aircraft alongside my AOs with the door open in 100 degree heat. If you haven't done whatever the sub community version of this is, you should probably ask yourself why.

In an aviation squadron, the majority of your personnel are in maintenance; they are doing exactly the types of things that get you dirty or sweaty on a daily basis. They are usually doing it in either extreme heat or extreme cold. My entire squadron deployed to 5th Fleet in 2014 without any organizational clothing because "funding wasn't available". Ever worn dark blue NWUs and black leather steel toes outdoors in Bahrain in July? In 2016 we were in Misawa trying to de-ice aircraft in the middle of a snow storm without winter parkas because big Navy couldn't figure out how to fulfill the supply backlog. Don't tell me that proper clothing items are available and that I can fix it - that's flat out bullshit.

As for your public perception argument - I don't look at civilians wearing stained dickies and work boots as "impoverished greaseballs", so I don't think most civilians would look at service members and think that either. If you do that might be a different issue. And I never said dungarees should come back - I just said looking good shouldn't be a driving factor for the new uniform. Scroll up and you'll see I advocated for the USCG working uniforms because they are everything I mentioned earlier - comfortable, functional, and safe.

BTW you think people were proud of wearing blueberries and they increased morale? Who have you been talking to? Everyone I know hates/d that uniform. Look like shit, fit like shit, ridiculously fucking expensive for what you get, and melted to your skin. Flight suits look cool because of the job they are associated with - objectively they are an ill-fitting fire retardant onesie with velcro patches. Nothing about it screams professional - but people know its military and that's what they respect about it, not the fact that it looks nice.

Having spent 10 years as an FE in MPRA (2007-17) I can personally attest that you are full of it. I don’t doubt that you did all of what you say ONCE, but don’t act like that is standard ops. If you are really out there cleaning planes, using a screw driver, and loading bouys, you are the exception, not the rule (especially as a FO).

About the only time FOs got sweaty was IF they were the NAVCOM getting boxed lunches, or if the AC sucked during preflight. Don’t try to paint a picture that doesn’t exist just to advance your narrative.

Facts-as someone who wore the prison uniform, we hated not being able to wear our uniform for off-Base stops. About the only gripes we had with the switch to the Type Ones were having to buy them (vice pocketing the uniform allowance).

More Facts-there is no perfect uniform so your gripes sound in lock step with any Happy Sailor....just sayin.

Cheers

 

[Angry]

Having spent 10 years as an FE in MPRA (2007-17) I can personally attest that you are full of it. I don’t doubt that you did all of what you say ONCE, but don’t act like that is standard ops. If you are really out there cleaning planes, using a screw driver, and loading bouys, you are the exception, not the rule (especially as a FO).

About the only time FOs got sweaty was IF they were the NAVCOM getting boxed lunches, or if the AC sucked during preflight. Don’t try to paint a picture that doesn’t exist just to advance your narrative.

Facts-as someone who wore the prison uniform, we hated not being able to wear our uniform for off-Base stops. About the only gripes we had with the switch to the Type Ones were having to buy them (vice pocketing the uniform allowance).

More Facts-there is no perfect uniform so your gripes sound in lock step with any Happy Sailor....just sayin.

Cheers

You've never flown with me so you can't personally attest to anything. I'm not advancing a narrative, I'm relaying my personal experience. If your officers didn't think it was important for them to pitch in, it sounds like you flew with a shitty crew. Don't cast aspersions on everyone who wears double anchors because the flew you happened to fly with didn't act appropriately. I certainly don't do that to every FE in the fleet despite being given justification in isolated incidents.

 

[Goodfou]

You've never flown with me so you can't personally attest to anything. I'm not advancing a narrative, I'm relaying my personal experience. If your officers didn't think it was important for them to pitch in, it sounds like you flew with a shitty crew. Don't cast aspersions on everyone who wears double anchors because the flew you happened to fly with didn't act appropriately. I certainly don't do that to every FE in the fleet despite being given justification in isolated incidents.

Like I said, I don’t doubt you haven’t done it at some point. You stated, “I don’t know about your community but....”. What you implied is that what you described is standard practice in VP Navy. That is false. And yes, I took the liberty to poke at NFOs. It goes without saying that there are plenty of quality VP NFOs, but you know I didn’t come up with that idea myself and you know why. Don’t take my word for it, go ask an honest VP pilot. Bottom line, the community does not preach what you are putting out. It isn’t the “Fleet Standard” so don’t imply that it is to a non-community bubba.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Having spent 10 years as an FE in MPRA (2007-17) I can personally attest that you are full of it. I don’t doubt that you did all of what you say ONCE, but don’t act like that is standard ops. If you are really out there cleaning planes, using a screw driver, and loading bouys, you are the exception, not the rule (especially as a FO).

About the only time FOs got sweaty was IF they were the NAVCOM getting boxed lunches, or if the AC sucked during preflight. Don’t try to paint a picture that doesn’t exist just to advance your narrative.

I’ve been retired since 1998, but back in my day every officer, and especially the NFOs, when they were done with their preflight helped the AOs load buoys. We also joined the crew for aircraft washes and in-depth cleans.

We may not have turned wrenches but on dets if something broke we help the maintenance aircrew and ground pounders fix the plane whoever we could. I unfastened plenty of panels, pushed many maintenance stands and lugged many toolboxes.

At home as a Divo or DH, if our guys worked weekends, we worked weekends. We may not have broke a sweat, but sweating wasn’t our job. But we were there doing things that were our job.

I read comments from Es all the time on FB, here and other sites shitting on officers as being lazy or stupid. Quite frankly most on the VP centric forums are FEs knocking NFOs and usually say something about how the FEs were superstars who saved every tactical mission with some brilliant insight or other. Pure Bullshit. Every P-3 crew I flew with worked as a team and succeeded as a team. The FEs were just one clog turning the wheel and no better or worse than anyone else.

Now days FB VP groups are overrun with FEs saying how the P-8 is worthless and will crash because they don’t have a FE. Well as a NFO turned airline pilot who also flew as an airline FE, I can assure you that the FE position is no longer needed and having one in a modern cockpit absolutely not needed. FEs have gone the way of the dinosaurs.

 

[robav8r]

Having spent 10 years as an FE in MPRA (2007-17) I can personally attest that you are full of it. I don’t doubt that you did all of what you say ONCE, but don’t act like that is standard ops. If you are really out there cleaning planes, using a screw driver, and loading bouys, you are the exception, not the rule (especially as a FO).

About the only time FOs got sweaty was IF they were the NAVCOM getting boxed lunches, or if the AC sucked during preflight. Don’t try to paint a picture that doesn’t exist just to advance your narrative.

Facts-as someone who wore the prison uniform, we hated not being able to wear our uniform for off-Base stops. About the only gripes we had with the switch to the Type Ones were having to buy them (vice pocketing the uniform allowance).

More Facts-there is no perfect uniform so your gripes sound in lock step with any Happy Sailor....just sayin.

Cheers

Well, I was in MPRA from 2001 to 2012. Did a lot of buoy loading, A/C washes, humped luggage and comm boxes and anything else required by the crew, squadron, deployment site. One team, One fight" was something we actually practiced, not preached. Go easy on the FE kool aid . . . .

 

[Goodfou]

I’ve been retired since 1998, but back in my day every officer, and especially the NFOs, when they were done with their preflight helped the AOs load buoys. We also joined the crew for aircraft washes and in-depth cleans.

We may not have turned wrenches but on dets if something broke we help the maintenance aircrew and ground pounders fix the plane whoever we could. I unfastened plenty of panels, pushed many maintenance stands and lugged many toolboxes.

At home as a Divo or DH, if our guys worked weekends, we worked weekends. We may not have broke a sweat, but sweating wasn’t our job....

I read comments from Es all the time on FB, here and other sites shitting on officers as being lazy or stupid. Quite frankly most on the VP centric forums are FEs knocking NFOs and usually say something about how the FEs were superstars who saved every tactical mission with some brilliant insight or other. Pure Bullshit. Every P-3 crew I flew with worked as a team and succeeded as a team. The FEs were just one clog turning the wheel and no better or worse than anyone else.

Now days FB VP groups are overrun with FEs saying how the P-8 is worthless and will crash because they don’t have a FE. Well as a NFO turned airline pilot who also flew as an airline FE, I can assure you that the FE position is no longer needed and having one in a modern cockpit absolutely not needed. FEs have gone the way of the dinosaurs.

Go easy on the FE kool aid . . . .

“We may not have broke a sweat, but sweating wasn’t our job....”. This! Say what you will but the NFO’s job is not to get sweaty; therefore, Angry’s point implying it is, doesn’t fly.

Regarding FEs, touché. Plenty of earned assumptions about them (me in a former life).
You won’t hear me argue against the need to replace the P-3, although I would have preferred and fully believe the P-7 option would have been more successful, for obvious reasons. Furthermore, it is foolish to insinuate that FEs are needed in modern aircraft, but then again, neither are FOs.?

“ Some Officers are lazy or stupid.” Fact

“Many times, FEs made initial visual contact via feather in the water.” Fact

“P-8s bring out some FE’s inferiority complex.” Fact

“NFOs regularly get their flights suits soiled to the point of lessening their professional appearance.” Fiction

“I’m drinking (I drank) too much of the FE coolaid.” Maybe

“I didn’t like having an inferiority complex, so I got a commission.” Fact ?

 

[Jim123]

Us helo pilots got our hands dirty, from time to time, by pitching in with the aircraft wash on deployment or scrubbing a few panels for some big inspection (DRI or whatever it was called).

The maintainers knew that a lot of our job was to know what was inside a pretty big stack of books. They were grownups and they knew the difference if we were studying or if we were hiding and watching movies and playing video games. They knew it wasn't our job to be wrenching and getting our hands dirty any more than it was their job to quiz us on systems and tactics, where to find whatever information in this-or-that NATO OPTASK, or the recce features and weapon engagement zones of a Krivak class frigate. Guys and gals appreciated the helping hand with the washes and they knew when it was time for us pickle suits to head back inside and get back our own jobs. It made for a nice break for us, too!

It's not complicated.

 

[HAL Pilot]

“We may not have broke a sweat, but sweating wasn’t our job....”. This! Say what you will but the NFO’s job is not to get sweaty; therefore, Angry’s point implying it is, doesn’t fly.

But if you reread my post, there were plenty of times we did (humping buoys, washing/cleaning planes, helping det maintenance)

Regarding FEs, touché. Plenty of earned assumptions about them (me in a former life).
You won’t hear me argue against the need to replace the P-3, although I would have preferred and fully believe the P-7 option would have been more successful, for obvious reasons. Furthermore, it is foolish to insinuate that FEs are needed in modern aircraft, but then again, neither are FOs.?

Try doing the mission without NFOs. It won't happen. But it does happen without FEs.

“ Some Officers are lazy or stupid.” Fact

Yes some are. So are some Es. Likewise there are some pretty ignorant even stupid FEs (or former FEs).

“Many times, FEs made initial visual contact via feather in the water.” Fact

Then the FE was not doing his job. His job was inside the cockpit monitoring instruments.

“P-8s bring out some FE’s inferiority complex.” Fact

Here we are in agreement

“NFOs regularly get their flights suits soiled to the point of lessening their professional appearance.” Fiction

Pure bullshit. See my first response in this post. Once again, you're showing your ass

“I’m drinking (I drank) too much of the FE coolaid.” Maybe

No maybe about it.

“I didn’t like having an inferiority complex, so I got a commission.” Fact ?

By this I take it you felt inferior because you were an E, not because you were a FE. There is no reason an E should feel inferior and if this is why you sought a commission, then you did so for the wrong reason.

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

Perfect time to mention a uniform policy NAVADMIN is out on the streets!

 

[HAL Pilot]

Perfect time to mention a uniform policy NAVADMIN is out on the streets!

You're ruining a perfectly good thread jack.

 

[Goodfou]

By this I take it you felt inferior because you were an E, not because you were a FE. There is no reason an E should feel inferior and if this is why you sought a commission, then you did so for the wrong reason.

Nah, I did it for the uniform...

 

[snake020]

Perfect time to mention a uniform policy NAVADMIN is out on the streets!

"Effective 1 June 2019, the requirement for enlisted Sailors to obtain 12 years of service along with continuous good conduct and minimum performance evaluation to qualify for wear of gold rating badges and service stripes is rescinded. All enlisted Sailors with 12 cumulative years of naval active or active reserve service are authorized to wear gold rating badges, and gold service stripes in lieu of red rating badges and stripes"

Why?