new developments posted on CNN about the -18 mishap in Miramar last december

[ghost]

Sounds like we're asking alot of a voice activated CAT-1 right? The dudes on the boat should have had the correct divert field (up to the minute, after all the boat has a GPS to!). CAT-1's don't know their hole from an ass in the ground... throw in a single engine divert and a compound emergency... sounds like whomever directed him to Miramar (and he had to have been told where to go) on the big grey floating prison absolutelly screwed the pooch...

The swiss cheese model is alive and lurking... waiting to align on your ass soon!

Just for everyone's information. From the JAGMAN the boat diverted the plane to NASNI. The squadron made the decision to divert to Miramar from shore after he had checked out with the boat. It wasn't the boat that screwed up, it was the squadron (CO, OPSO, and ODO specifically faulted in the report).

But the swiss cheese model was very much alive here. Lots of things lined up just perfectly (including unheard radio transmissions). Reading the JAGMAN is a good example of how many unrelated factors can line up and turn a relatively small problem (loss of engine oil pressure on one engine) into a disaster that killed four people on the ground. I recommend that everyone who hasn't read the SIR (or can't get a copy) take the time to sit down with the JAGMAN.

 

[xj220]

The "unheard" radio transmissions seem rather shady. Could it be people covering their own asses? I understand a lot is going on and I know I've missed plenty of radio comms in normal flying, but it seems like if a call is important enough they'd double check to make sure it went through and was completed. Just a thought.

 

[P3 F0]

I'd be surprised if that was the case--I think you'd have to have a few guys in on that little lie, so I don't see it holding up during the investigation. But I guess you never know. The whole thing seemed to play out in a command that was a bit relaxed (not a bad thing in general) and playing this out like a run-of-the-mill low-threat EP. The MP obviously felt compelled to land at Miramar, so I'm left wondering what the MP thought the consequences would be of disregarding front office input and landing at NASNI. More directly, what the command climate was under that CO. Even the linked redacted report pounds the squadron pretty well. Can't wait to read the unadbridged version.

The biggest question, no doubt, is why in the world they included gnat's ass lat/long for the post-crash aft ejection seat location.

 

[MAKE VAPES]

Regardless of how majorly or minorly the MP efed up:

If a chick in Lemoore can land on the runway edge and plow into/through an arresting gear engine and keep flying after the CO is relieved, this dude's wings will survive!

If a dude can dump gas on Fentress at 600 AGL at night, send a fat trailer park chick to the hospital in a cloud of JP5, and get hidden from the "man" as the walk-on LSO and guest of the ship for a week or so after the det... this dude's wings will survive!

If a dude can come into the break, never lower his gear, pancake in gear up, go to mil, grind the 6 inches off the Tomcat's horizontal stabs trying to get airborne again, realize that it ain't gonna happen, come to a stop 6000' down the runway, drop the gear handle, flaps and hook, pop the canopy and run away and lie about it all, this dude's wings will survive!

If a dude can try to take off with the Tomcat's wings in Oversweep at night, abort the takeoff because the plane won't rotate (horizontal stab authority restricted in oversweep), blow the tires, miss the long field gear, kill the motors, then say that they went off the runway for blown tires (not wings in wrong position), get caught in the lie (how did you get the wings into oversweep in the grass with the motors off and no hydraulics?), this dude's wings will survive! (incident pilot actually headed off to TPS!)

JAGMAN is interesting, but they'll never burn the MP, probation worst case.

 

[nittany03]

Speaking as a FNAEBee, there's a difference between your wings and your flight status surviving. According to the instruction, wings get pulled for "bringing disgrace upon Naval Aviation" or "willfully violating" rules and regs. You can keep your wings and never get flight pay again.

 

[HooverPilot]

But most of the guys (if not all) in MakeVapes post lived to fly again. I went through flight school with the fentress gear up guy and then did 2 deployments with him, post incident.

 

[eddie]

Regardless of how majorly or minorly the MP efed up:

If a chick in Lemoore can land on the runway edge and plow into/through an arresting gear engine and keep flying after the CO is relieved, this dude's wings will survive!

If a dude can dump gas on Fentress at 600 AGL at night, send a fat trailer park chick to the hospital in a cloud of JP5, and get hidden from the "man" as the walk-on LSO and guest of the ship for a week or so after the det... this dude's wings will survive!

If a dude can come into the break, never lower his gear, pancake in gear up, go to mil, grind the 6 inches off the Tomcat's horizontal stabs trying to get airborne again, realize that it ain't gonna happen, come to a stop 6000' down the runway, drop the gear handle, flaps and hook, pop the canopy and run away and lie about it all, this dude's wings will survive!

If a dude can try to take off with the Tomcat's wings in Oversweep at night, abort the takeoff because the plane won't rotate (horizontal stab authority restricted in oversweep), blow the tires, miss the long field gear, kill the motors, then say that they went off the runway for blown tires (not wings in wrong position), get caught in the lie (how did you get the wings into oversweep in the grass with the motors off and no hydraulics?), this dude's wings will survive! (incident pilot actually headed off to TPS!)

JAGMAN is interesting, but they'll never burn the MP, probation worst case.

Some of those stories are hilarious.


What do you have to do to get your flight status revoked? Or is it really case by case?

 

[nittany03]

What do you have to do to get your flight status revoked? Or is it really case by case?

It is case by case. Short version: you have to go to a board, which makes a recommendation, which is then commented on by you, which goes to your CO, who endorses and forwards to the Commodore/CAG, who endorses and forwards to a three-star. Who makes the call and forwards to BUPERS if necessary.

You can get put back on flight status, put on probation (flight status with conditions), or go fly another airframe. You can also get taken off flight status with or without the right to continue wearing your wings.

 

[bunk22]

Some of those stories are hilarious.


What do you have to do to get your flight status revoked? Or is it really case by case?

My guess is case by case. Some folks are protected outright and others, not so much. Lets see, fire light on short final, wave-off and proceed to an airfield 10 minutes away because the field they were at had no arresting gear, even though it was 8000' long. The crew realizes the fire is bad, turn back to the original field and though they land, the aircraft loses all hydraulilcs, runs off the runway, Class A, aircraft done. Not even FNAEB'ed. I believe the front office gave them air medals...or so I was told.

You can get put back on flight status, put on probation (flight status with conditions), or go fly another airframe. You can also get taken off flight status with or without the right to continue wearing your wings.

Might still be the same label but in order as you said, it's an A1, A4, A2 then the bad stuff, a B1 or B2. Stay away from the B's!!

 

[P3 F0]

Now I'm wondering if anyone knows of anyone that lost wings and/or flight status via FNAEB?

I also think the MP will get through this just fine (IF he goes to a board at all), but the wild card here is that a) this killed civvies, and b) it was very high-vis. Even though the JAGMAN stresses (the way I read it) that the MP did everything right after his left engine failed, there's still plenty of rope in there to hang him if Big Navy decides to make an example. Personally, I think the guy has been through enough hell already.

 

[exhelodrvr]

Now I'm wondering if anyone knows of anyone that lost wings and/or flight status via FNAEB?

I knew of three taken off of flight status, all were able to keep their wings; one who had a hit a tree doing an unauthorized low-level (relatively minor damage to a couple of the rotor blades, no injuries), and another who was using unauthorized procedures on an FCF (heard that story second-hand, so I won't go into details since I'm not sure of the accuracy), and one student in the FRS who wasn't progressing (after being given plenty of chances).

I also knew one who was very sharp tactically, no problems with NATOPS, etc. but had "stick and rudder" problems; lost his status as a pilot, but transitioned to an NFO community, where he did very well. I don't remember if that was a FNAEB or not.

 

[teabag53]

Now I'm wondering if anyone knows of anyone that lost wings and/or flight status via FNAEB?

I know a few that immediately spring to mind. One was a great pilot and definitely not a 'tard but was subsequently fried after a mishap (a LOT of politics in that one), two were just lackluster performers (due to either lack of skills, proper motivation, or both), and one for a lack of flight leadership.

 

[zipmartin]

Regardless of how majorly or minorly the MP efed up:

If a chick in Lemoore can land on the runway edge and plow into/through an arresting gear engine and keep flying after the CO is relieved, this dude's wings will survive!

A particular, already-winged, female rotor-head was transitioning to jets back in the early '80's in Kingsville. She showed up in the squadron letting it be well-known her plans of eventually becoming an astronaut. On her very first solo in the TA-4, she departed controlled flight at the top of a loop and jumped out just minutes after takeoff. During the investigation it was determined she hadn't been airborne long enough to burn the gas out of the droptanks - a no-no for doing loops in the A-4. During the FNAEB she cried discrimination when she learned of the board's recommendation to pull her wings. She was assigned to a different squadron, eventually completed and a few years later showed up at VF-43 in Oceana as an OUT-OF-CONTROL FLIGHT/SPIN INSTRUCTOR!!!

 

[scoolbubba]

At least she was doing what she knew best...

 

[Flash]

Now I'm wondering if anyone knows of anyone that lost wings and/or flight status via FNAEB?

One of the twins in our sister squadron when we were in VQ-1 lost his flight status, became a PAO. Not sure of the circumstances, if it was an actual FNEAB or not, but he definitely didn't fly any more.