Need the help of some aviation guys in unions

[Jonzac]

All,

I need some help for the Labor Relations class I'm in at Embry-Riddle. I need to do a paper on an interview with someone associated with aviation labor...kind of hard to do from Korea.

If you wouldn't mind answering 9 questions by email, please post here or send me a email at netcherfamily@yahoo.com

Kind of weird I know, but I'm trying to knock out my MBAA while I'm on staff here.

THanks for the help.

Wes Netcher

 

[ip568]

Talk to any unemployed union pilot. It's likely he's unemployed because he was in a union that busted the airline's bankroll.

 

[Catmando]

Talk to any unemployed union pilot. It's likely he's unemployed because he was in a union that busted the airline's bankroll.

Or more likely he's unemployed because he was with an airline whose poor management busted the airline's bankroll.

If one has a personal ax to grind, it's therefore always easy focus the total blame – either on management, or unions. However, the real reasons for the industry's current turmoil and massive unemployment are varied and much more complex. Some reasons are merely circumstance; some are due to ineptness, some to the unique economics and prevailing mentality of the industry.

Nevertheless, it is the airline management – and not the unions – that determine the course of the business and execute the plan. It is management – not unions – that determine in the final analysis, what amount of the treasury goes to employees – unionized or not. Indeed, in some airlines, it is inept management who unconscionably reward themselves with bonuses, while many of their pilots are on the street, and their airline is in, or teeters on the verge of bankruptcy.

[and yes, that is my personal ax you hear grinding]

Generally, unions never demolish an airline, but certain management styles have and usually do.

But once again, the real answer is never that simple.

 

[Jonzac]

I appreciate that this is a sore spot for many people. I'm still looking for anyone (management or pilot/mech/FA) that wouldn't mind answering a few questions for me.

 

[A4sForever]

I appreciate that this is a sore spot for many people. I'm still looking for anyone (management or pilot/mech/FA) that wouldn't mind answering a few questions for me.

PM me ... knock yourself out. No guarantees that I can help you, but we'll see ........

 

[HAL Pilot]

Talk to any unemployed union pilot. It's likely he's unemployed because he was in a union that busted the airline's bankroll.

I'm an unemployed union pilot because management (the 51% stock holder/CEO) got greedy and siphoned off all the money in a stock buy back that gave him 3x the value. Than he demanded concessions from the unions and aircraft leasers to keep the company out of bankruptcy. After the unions took the ass-raping, Boeing told him to piss up a rope. So he declared bankruptcy and sold the company for a huge profit to a friend. The friend than got more concessions from the unions to enable the company to exit bankruptcy while paying the creditors 100% (and by the way, this friend now also owned all the debt which he bought at 25 cents on the dollar).

Meanwhile, throughout the entire bankruptcy and employee rape, the company made record profits.......

The union is the only reason we got a reach around and lube. Otherwise it would have been many times more painful and pathetic.

Even at the airlines with the highest paid unions/pilots, it would only take 10 or 20 cents more per ticket to cover what was taken away from the employees. In fact, at one point during the United bankruptcy, it was pointed out to the Judge that if the pilots worked for free with no benefits at all, the airline would still be losing big money.

Oh and lets not forget that airline tickets are almost the highest taxed item you can buy. Somewhere in the 22-24% range, up from 10-12% pre-9/11/2001. The so called airline bailout of post 9/11 ended up being in reality airlines loaning themselves the money while paying the feds an astronomical interest rate since the new taxes will never go away and have far exceeded the money given the airlines. And did the airlines raise ticket prices to cover this extra 10%+ loss of income? No, the initially ate it and than took it from the employees paychecks.

I'll say it one more time - it is not the unions that put the airlines in bankruptcy. It's broken business models, too low ticket prices and extremely bad management that put the airlines in bankruptcy. The feds haven't helped either with their airline tax cash cow.

Jonzac - you can pm me the questions and I will try to answer them too. But I've been furloughed and away from the union for about 3 years.

 

[A4sForever]

Talk to any unemployed union pilot. It's likely he's unemployed because he was in a union that busted the airline's bankroll.

I'm an unemployed union pilot....... throughout the entire bankruptcy ... the company made record profits...

..... during the United bankruptcy, it was pointed out to the Judge that if the pilots worked for free with no benefits at all, the airline would still be losing big money. It's broken business models, too low ticket prices and extremely bad management that put the airlines in bankruptcy.

I'll say it one more time - it is not the unions that put the airlines in bankruptcy.

Well .... there you go. You got to talk to an (any?) unemployed union (airline) pilot. And you can talk to me as well, as I lost a job with a former airline when they crashed and burned and went Chapter 7. Big-time management screw-ups, which have been well documented as how NOT to run an airline over the intervening decades. The pilots were the only group -- labor or management -- that almost saved the day in that sorry and unnecessary instance of an airline dying.

It still never ceases to amaze me how people put their own prejudices into the discussion of airlines and unions when they have most certainly never walked the walk ... just talked the talk ....

 

[ChunksJR]

Talking about unions...Chuck Norris knows where Jimmy Hoffa is buried because he put him there.

 

[saltpeter]

Why not call the HR department of an airline, submit your qualifications, and ask with whom you could conduct an interview for a college term paper. I'm sure your professor will assist you in the proper channels to contact an airline representative. Secondly, consider contacting ALPA and obtainng their point of view. An airline may allow you to interview their MEC chairperson.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Why not call the HR department of an airline, submit your qualifications, and ask with whom you could conduct an interview for a college term paper. I'm sure your professor will assist you in the proper channels to contact an airline representative. Secondly, consider contacting ALPA and obtainng their point of view. An airline may allow you to interview their MEC chairperson.

I would not call the airline itself for info on the union.

Airline contact info from the public side of ALPA's website: https://www.alpa.org/?tabid=199

 

[saltpeter]

Good point. But I also wouldn't cite a chat board for a term paper either. I'm not sure if, "Saltpeter says", would have much credibility in terms of research.

 

[saltpeter]

Airline contracts are public domain and can be found online. This will give you a jump off point. Remember also, some airlines have their own company based union and others have no union at all.

 

[snizo]

And did the airlines raise ticket prices to cover this extra 10%+ loss of income?

Airfare is supposed to go up 10% from last summer to this summer alone (CNN). Airfares right now certainly as cheap as they were a few years ago. I'm pretty confident in saying they have gone up ... but so have costs (fuel).

But once again, the real answer is never that simple.

Management can't manage when a union tries to strong arm the management and run the company. The union can't keep a company going when management doesn't run the business well. You can argue until you're blue in the face ... companies don't go under because of one factor alone.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Airfare is supposed to go up 10% from last summer to this summer alone (CNN). Airfares right now certainly as cheap as they were a few years ago. I'm pretty confident in saying they have gone up ... but so have costs (fuel).

Prices did not start raising until 2005, well after the taxes increased and price of fuel more than doubled. Further, if you adjust for inflation, tickets are still cheaper than they were in the 1990s. Prices have not kept up with inflation, let alone with the dramatic raise in fuel and taxes.

Management can't manage when a union tries to strong arm the management and run the company. The union can't keep a company going when management doesn't run the business well. You can argue until you're blue in the face ... companies don't go under because of one factor alone.

Since 9/11, almost every ALPA unit out there has given concessions out of bankruptcy. Than the companies go into bankruptcy and demand more. The results had been 2 and 3 rounds of concessions while mangement gets "retention bonuses" and stock options. Look at Delta, the pilot tried to give $750 million or so in concessions for 2 years but management wouldn't accept it. They wanted $1 billion. So instead of saving $1.5 billion over that time they got 0. Than as soon as the ink dried on the concessions management finally accepted - they demand more. Northwest pilots voluntarily gave concessions a couple of years ago and urged the other unions to do the same. The results? NWA now wants to gut their contract and outsource at least 1/3 of their jobs.

Pilot unions have a strong history of stepping up to the plate and giving back when times are bad. But when times are good, they have to fight managment tooth and nail to get even one penny back. Management repays the unions by taking huge success fees and bonuses for all the money they (management) saved the airline by raping the employees. Then right after the CEO and the top dogs get paid, they start demanding more from the employees.

 

[snizo]

Yes and had business continued in the fashion that many did in part of the 90's, airlines would continue to be able to pay everyone anything and still make money. CEO's didn't want fuel costs to rise. Management didn't cause 9/11. And they didn't ask airlines like FL, WN, and B6 to come and play, either.

I was just saying it isn't fair to pin everything on the management (nor unions). The current condition of the aviation industry can't be attributed to any one source by itself.

I was hoping to find a good quote from a previous thread here - something along the lines of how pointless it is to make sense of this industry.