Navy using a laser for Point Defense

[BigRed389]

Serious question... Does the Block 1 CWIS not have a LRF on it? I figured that thing would be powerful enough to be a Class 3x or better, but maybe not.

Your statement is actually kind of amusing, because after I sat there thinking for a minute trying to rebut it, I realized I hadn't actually seen anything that wouldn't be anthing more than annoying to anyone. I don't think I've even seen a (conventional) Shoe with a PEQ/IZLID.

Yup, Block 1B has a LRF. And if a TIS (5" gun spotting camera) LRF is eye safe, I can't imagine the CIWS (20mm point defense gun) wouldn't be also.

I honestly can't even think of a practical reason for a PEQ, IZLID, or anything else of that nature to be used from a ship.

 

[Gatordev]

I honestly can't even think of a practical reason for a PEQ, IZLID, or anything else of that nature to be used from a ship.

Have you watched your kin try and hit anything with crew-served? At least at night they have tracers, but having a no kidding pointer would help with not letting 75% of the rounds fly over or short of the target. I know, I know, then you'd need NODs, and those would probably be broken about 43 seconds after they were first pulled out to be used.

There's also some uses for some sort of pointer during boardings, specifically VBSS stuff that's supported by a helo (or HVBSS if you're doing that). Trying to use a chem light on a string isn't always the most practical in certain seas or situations. Counter-detection, is obviously an issue either way.

 

[BigRed389]

Have you watched your kin try and hit anything with crew-served? At least at night they have tracers, but having a no kidding pointer would help with not letting 75% of the rounds fly over or short of the target. I know, I know, then you'd need NODs, and those would probably be broken about 43 seconds after they were first pulled out to be used.

There's also some uses for some sort of pointer during boardings, specifically VBSS stuff that's supported by a helo (or HVBSS if you're doing that). Trying to use a chem light on a string isn't always the most practical in certain seas or situations. Counter-detection, is obviously an issue either way.

True, but there are other ways to skin those cats.
ACOG or PVS for the guns. I've gotten consistent first round hits with both a M2 and M240 at ~300 yds with that setup.
Depending on just how badly you want to get someone's attention: Flares, smoke grenades, VS-17 panels, Vipir strobes (both vis and IR), chem light bundles, etc. Our VBSS dudes "aren't supposed to" do night boardings anyway.

Anyway, not intended to argue that it couldn't help, but I just think our current training problems trump the equipment problems for those mission areas.

 

[Gatordev]

True, but there are other ways to skin those cats.
ACOG or PVS for the guns. I've gotten consistent first round hits with both a M2 and M240 at ~300 yds with that setup.
Depending on just how badly you want to get someone's attention: Flares, smoke grenades, VS-17 panels, Vipir strobes (both vis and IR), chem light bundles, etc.

I have seen exactly zero of any of those things. Mind you, I'm talking conventional, not the high-speed stuff you do now. Also, if you have a PVS installed, why not have a pointer/PEQ/IZLID?

Our VBSS dudes "aren't supposed to" do night boardings anyway.

Anyway, not intended to argue that it couldn't help, but I just think our current training problems trump the equipment problems for those mission areas.

Whether you want to call it "VBSS" or something else, I don't know how many times the boat team (sometimes with LEDET) have boarded a vessel at night. Maybe your boat just didn't want to violate Harrier Dude's mantra.

 

[insanebikerboy]

why not have a pointer/PEQ/IZLID?

Why even need an IR one? Considering they shoot bright tracers and, well, it's a boat, it's not too hard for the guy being shot at to figure out where the bullets are coming from.

 

[Gatordev]

Why even need an IR one? Considering they shoot bright tracers and, well, it's a boat, it's not too hard for the guy being shot at to figure out where the bullets are coming from.

True. Are there NSNs for visible lasers/pointers? I'm sure there are, but again, that would make too much sense and require a budget that could afford them...something the Surface Navy often lacks both of.

 

[scoober78]

More seriously, shoes don't have laser safety programs. I can't imagine the Safety Center letting anything that's not eye safe out in the Fleet without jamming a laser safety program along with it.

Not true, at least across the board. I went to ALSO, TLSO and instructor cert with dozens...

 

[tiger84]

Yup, Block 1B has a LRF. And if a TIS (5" gun spotting camera) LRF is eye safe, I can't imagine the CIWS (20mm point defense gun) wouldn't be also.

I honestly can't even think of a practical reason for a PEQ, IZLID, or anything else of that nature to be used from a ship.

They assured me it was eye safe after I lost my shit on the radio when they started lasing me in the starboard D and my RWR picked it up. They didn't see what the big deal was since they were just using me to "calibrate" the CWIS. Too bad they didn't let me in on the plan before lighting me up.

 

[BigRed389]

I have seen exactly zero of any of those things. Mind you, I'm talking conventional, not the high-speed stuff you do now. Also, if you have a PVS installed, why not have a pointer/PEQ/IZLID?

Fleet teams should already have Vipir strobes, massive stockpiles of chemlights, and pencil flares onboard.
While we're on markers (which is really just another way to do comms), have the VBSS team reprogram the VBSS radio channels off the defaults to designate a channel to talk to ship/helo/boats. Maybe not secure since you probably can't upload commerical crypto into ship/helo comms, but that's not a big deal. Or if it needs to be, upgrade the team leads to PRC-152s or MBITRs, and you can set up to talk secure to everything under the sun. If shit actually does go badly on a large vessel boarding, you'll probably want the helo to provide close fires to cover your exfil...might be good to learn how to coordinate that (for both sides) before the shit hits the fan. Especially if guys get hit. Speaking of taking hits, issuing IFAKs and Combat Casualty Care training would be just super.
PEQ-2s can be toggled for visible laser, but they're not used often for obvious reasons.
The PVS mounts with the ACOG, so the PEQ isn't necessary at night...nice to have but not necessary.

Not true, at least across the board. I went to ALSO, TLSO and instructor cert with dozens...

Oh goody, more programs and admin training. Did they say what platforms they were from?

They didn't see what the big deal was since they were just using me to "calibrate" the CWIS. Too bad they didn't let me in on the plan before lighting me up.

SPY was probably still on high power too. You weren't planning on having kids were you?

 

[scoober78]

Fleet teams should already have Vipir strobes, massive stockpiles of chemlights, and pencil flares onboard.
While we're on markers (which is really just another way to do comms), have the VBSS team reprogram the VBSS radio channels off the defaults to designate a channel to talk to ship/helo/boats. Maybe not secure since you probably can't upload commerical crypto into ship/helo comms, but that's not a big deal. Or if it needs to be, upgrade the team leads to PRC-152s or MBITRs, and you can set up to talk secure to everything under the sun. If shit actually does go badly on a large vessel boarding, you'll probably want the helo to provide close fires to cover your exfil...might be good to learn how to coordinate that (for both sides) before the shit hits the fan. Especially if guys get hit. Speaking of taking hits, issuing IFAKs and Combat Casualty Care training would be just super.
PEQ-2s can be toggled for visible laser, but they're not used often for obvious reasons.
The PVS mounts with the ACOG, so the PEQ isn't necessary at night...nice to have but not necessary.


Oh goody, more programs and admin training. Did they say what platforms they were from?

Small boys and riverine warfare bubbas...At the location I was instructing at they were about 80/20 Bremerton to San Dog...

 

[phrogpilot73]

They assured me it was eye safe after I lost my shit on the radio when they started lasing me in the starboard D and my RWR picked it up.

Why did you have your RWR on in the D? I wouldn't, only because the sheer number of tickles would annoy me... And how did your RWR pick up a laser? I'd assume your ASE is similar to ours, and our MWS is what would pick up a laser, not our RWR...

 

[tiger84]

Why did you have your RWR on in the D? I wouldn't, only because the sheer number of tickles would annoy me... And how did your RWR pick up a laser? I'd assume your ASE is similar to ours, and our MWS is what would pick up a laser, not our RWR...

Had it on for training either for the 2P or the AWs. It was usually off unless we thought we might need it, which was almost never. The MWS is what I meant. I've just gotten in a bad habit of calling anything that shows up on the display in the cockpit an RWR indication even though it is a different system.