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Navy Reserve COVID Vaccinations by October

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
We have a disease that has a mortality rate that is heavily age dependent, so if you're under 50 you've got really, really good odds of being completely fine without any vaccination whatsoever.
There is a huge range of outcomes in-between dead and feeling fine. If you were in an ICU, you’ve probably got lingering issues. Long Covid is a real thing, like getting Lyme disease. Also, cognitive impairment, I.e.,brain fog. This is a high rate…



We have a legitimate counting problem with fatalities.
We can look at excess deaths. The normal death rate is pretty constant year to year, and Covid is the only pandemic in town at the moment.

 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
No one is out to lunch. Military people cannot cherry pick, especially in light of our other requirements where there is zero outrage or discussion of "rights" or whateverthefck. This whole thing is a political sh1t show.
I think that the discussion over rights in this thread has meandered into civilian workforce requirements and Biden's executive order (which a federal court has since put a stay on).

The military can mandate vaccines, and this isn't the first time the military has jumped to prescribe something for servicemembers at an early stage. The flu shot doesn't come with a warning that it causes myocarditis in people under 30. The DoD has offered people who are skeptical an out to get an honorable discharge and move on with life.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
There is a huge range of outcomes in-between dead and feeling fine. If you were in an ICU, you’ve probably got lingering issues. Long Covid is a real thing, like getting Lyme disease. Also, cognitive impairment, I.e.,brain fog. This is a high rate…

This doesn't really address what I'm saying. The overall odds of hospitalization given you have COVID-19 is 7%, which is still heavily skewed toward older people and people with pre-existing conditions. The mean age was 49 and not a single person in that study was younger than 38 (I also suspect a math error on the SD (14 years) because it's larger than the range of data - 38-59). I suppose the fact that 10-20% of those people get 'long COVID' is a concern (~1% of overall cases), but the majority of people who end up in the ICU outright die.
 
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AllAmerican75

FUBIJAR
None
Contributor
My employer, a defense contractor, has granted exemptions. They make it enough of a pain in the ass to wash out the “I just don’t wanna” crowd, but I have at least a couple of co-workers with approved exemptions from the vaccine. It’s not exactly free choice, but it’s not as cut-and-dried as “get the shot or get fired”. In fact, the CEO held out as long as he could and gave people as many off ramps as possible, to include reassignment to non-defense portions of the company (where practical.) I believe my employer is doing what it can, given its position.

That said, I also believe the mandate is executive overreach that puts a lot of employers in a nasty position when talent is already at a premium.

The really weird one is small subcontractors for defense companies, like the guy who comes in to maintain our flight equipment. I’m still not sure what their requirements are under the president’s mandate.

Finally, I’m still surprised more people aren’t talking about the conformity issue with “Comirnaty”. It’s my understanding that technically a vaccine isn’t FDA approved unless it’s labeling is consistent with the approved formulation. So… with that labeling still not available in the US, how is it legal to force people to take the vaccine? At minimum, I believe mandates aren’t legally enforceable until the vaccine is available under the “Comirnaty” label. What am I missing here?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, stop asking difficult questions. Don't you know that overnight all of the labels magically became "Comirnaty" labels? ;) This despite the fact that the FDA's own approval paperwork makes it crystal clear that the Pfizer/Biontech vaccine under EUA and "Comirnaty" are chemically and legally distinct.

Furthermore, I doubt there will ever be any follow-up on the long term longitudinal trials that were a stipulation of the FDA approval of "Comirnaty". With the apparent lack of any desire amongst the federal government to hold Pfizer, Biontech, or Moderna to any sort of accountability for their actions, I'm sure the trials will be canceled, deemed "successful," and then swept under the rug just like all of the allegations of falsifying the Phase 2 and Phase 3 trials have been.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Negotiating with folks to give up their right to an ADSEP board is a drug deal by my definition. But regardless what you want to call it.. my question remains.. why would a sailor give up their right to a board in exchange for... Accelerating their loss of salary/benefits and guaranteeing they get the worst characterization possible? Serious question. I don't get it.
Some people may be using this as a pretext to separate before their contract is up. In those cases, waive the board and expedite the process. This happens all the time for other reasons in non-covid cases.
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
The mean age was 49 and not a single person in that study was younger than 38 (I also suspect a math error on the SD (14 years) because it's larger than the range of data - 38-59).
The article is a little confusing on that 38-59.

The interquartile range (IQR) is 38-59. That means 50% of the sample lies in that range, which also means 50% of the sample is outside it, 25% younger and 25% older. From the full paper...

It is well known that certain populations (eg, older adults) may be particularly susceptible to cognitive impairment after critical illness5 ; however, in the relatively young cohort in the present study, a substantial proportion exhibited cognitive dysfunction several months after recovering from COVID-19.
 
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squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
For those curious about Reserve folks declining the COVID vaccine... To save the time with ADSEP boards, our NOSC is negotiating General discharges for those who are refusing the vaccine.

Eligibility for Benefits Chart

NOSC Houston apparently has the highest refusal rate at about 50% which is not surprising given the location.
Ooo is there a breakdown available?
 

Tycho_Brohe

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
This despite the fact that the FDA's own approval paperwork makes it crystal clear that the Pfizer/Biontech vaccine under EUA and "Comirnaty" are chemically...distinct.
Citation needed. Not only did I not get that sense from reading the approval, quite the opposite in fact, but how would it make sense to have any kind of chemical difference between BnT and Comirnaty? "Hey, you know that drug you've spent the past year and a half developing, testing, and distributing under EUA to millions of people? Just keep distributing it under EUA. Also this different drug is approved."
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Whoa, whoa, whoa, stop asking difficult questions. Don't you know that overnight all of the labels magically became "Comirnaty" labels? ;) This despite the fact that the FDA's own approval paperwork makes it crystal clear that the Pfizer/Biontech vaccine under EUA and "Comirnaty" are chemically and legally distinct.

Furthermore, I doubt there will ever be any follow-up on the long term longitudinal trials that were a stipulation of the FDA approval of "Comirnaty". With the apparent lack of any desire amongst the federal government to hold Pfizer, Biontech, or Moderna to any sort of accountability for their actions, I'm sure the trials will be canceled, deemed "successful," and then swept under the rug just like all of the allegations of falsifying the Phase 2 and Phase 3 trials have been.
I'm sorry, is there actually an argument that now that the Pfizer shot has a formal name that there's some sort of difference because the sticker on the bottle is different?

Bud Light in a fancy can is still bid light. Advil and Ibuprofen are still the same thing.

It's like I see each new crazy excuse from the "shot freedom crowd" pop up here in real time as everyone's Twitter feed updates. Within this weekend all of a sudden mRNA vaccines are no longer vaccines and now this if I understand the argument correctly. Pathetic if it is the case.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
The article is a little confusing on that 38-59.

The interquartile range (IQR) is 38-59. That means 50% of the sample lies in that range, which also means 50% of the sample is outside it, 25% younger and 25% older. From the full paper...

It is well known that certain populations (eg, older adults) may be particularly susceptible to cognitive impairment after critical illness5 ; however, in the relatively young cohort in the present study, a substantial proportion exhibited cognitive dysfunction several months after recovering from COVID-19.
Oh, fun with stats.

Yes, the presentation of the interquartile range is a bit odd. However, the conclusion you posted (which I get is from the paper itself) isn't actually supported by the study.

The design of the experiment decided to use a relatively uniform distribution for age in the sample, which makes sense to avoid small data sets in certain groups and makes the analysis easier. However, in doing so, the sample set isn't representative of the general population. In other words, if I randomly sampled 750 hospital patients from COVID-19, I wouldn't expect 25% of them to be under 38, nor would I expect only 25% of them to be over 59 (people in that group account for over half of all hospitalizations). I would also expect quite a bit of survivor bias to show up here since the odds of making it out of the ICU are drastically lower as one ages.

Ultimately, the experiment shows that you have a substantial risk (about 10-20%) of long covid given that you have a bad enough case to require in-patient care and survive it. But the odds of requiring in-patient care in the first place are drastically skewed by age, as are the odds of surviving. The paper stopped short of re-introducing these factors into its statistical analysis of results, so it doesn't really tell the full story about the chances that 30 year old John Doe gets long covid. Furthermore, when we compare this to his odds of dying, long covid becomes statistically insignificant.

At the end of the day, the paper doesn't do anything to refute my original assertion that the disease is far more impactful on people over 50.
 
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Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
It's like I see each new crazy excuse from the "shot freedom crowd" pop up here in real time as everyone's Twitter feed updates. Within this weekend all of a sudden mRNA vaccines are no longer vaccines and now this if I understand the argument correctly. Pathetic if it is the case.
It's hard to tell whether this stuff is just being deployed as yet another bad faith argument from the "you can't tell me what to do" ensemble of five year olds, or if people are just stupid enough to believe anything they read online. Probably some of both. The fact that some people will latch on to any story or concept - no matter how absurd or far-fetched - simply because it supports their position or worldview, is concerning.
 

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
I'm sorry, is there actually an argument that now that the Pfizer shot has a formal name that there's some sort of difference because the sticker on the bottle is different?

Bud Light in a fancy can is still bid light. Advil and Ibuprofen are still the same thing.

It's like I see each new crazy excuse from the "shot freedom crowd" pop up here in real time as everyone's Twitter feed updates. Within this weekend all of a sudden mRNA vaccines are no longer vaccines and now this if I understand the argument correctly. Pathetic if it is the case.

The intent of my argument about labeling was to point out an issue with regulation and enforcement. A fancy can of Bud Light still has the same required labeling that any alcoholic beverage requires to be legally sold, and is still labeled as “Bud Light” somewhere.

Think of it this way. I have an experimental airplane that I want to sell to customers, and eventually certify. After selling a bunch, I finally get it certified. I continue churning out airplanes that have “experimental” labeling on them and none of the required certification labeling. It’s the same airplane, so who cares, right? My customers need to fly, and I need to make money.

Turns out, the FAA cares a lot, and shuts me down. Just like they’d punish a pilot for flying a perfectly fine airplane without the required documentation on board. With me so far?

So, again, why is it OK to mandate a vaccine when that vaccine is not available under approved FDA labeling? This at least need to be addressed publicly. I’m looking for honesty and transparency here, and I’m not seeing any.
 
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bubblehead

Registered Member
Contributor
^^^

For an institution that highly values getting the paperwork right ("you can't get promoted, there's a gap in your fitness reports"), Big Navy sure is fast to cut corners on this one when it comes to kicking a lot of people out.
I can assure you no one is cutting any corners, at least at my NOSC. They are following RESPERSMAN to the letter for everything the last two years because of RCC inspections and re-inspections.

Try going a year without getting your flu shot or updating your Family Care Plan (FCP) and you'll net the same result: eventual ADSEP. I had four Sailors get Admin U's (administrative unsatisfactory participation) last month even though they drilled. Why? They didn't bother updating their FCP by the due date. For two of these Sailors (HYT E6's with 18 years each), this was their second month's worth of Admin U's for that same reason.
 
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Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
^^^

For an institution that highly values getting the paperwork right ("you can't get promoted, there's a gap in your fitness reports"), Big Navy sure is fast to cut corners on this one when it comes to kicking a lot of people out.
The opposite is true. At least on the AD side, this process is being micromanaged from above to ensure uniformity of outcome and fairness. A servicemember waiving an ADSEP board isn't cutting corners. It is, and always has been, part of the process.
 
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