Navy Reserve COVID Vaccinations by October

[SlickAg]

I'm not a virologist or any type of medical professional. Frankly it's up to them to determine the best way to ensure the force gets the immunity they need. But I'm not surprised that they've chosen a vax over exposing everyone to COVID as I imagine it offers the least bad path to getting the force immunity in a short and safe path. And why it's been commonly used for all the other pathogens that folks get jabs for.

If someone has antibodies, you’re not exposing them to covid. That ship has sailed, as it were.

If the DOD actually cared about prevalence, outcomes, and the health of the force, they would’ve done a blood draw on all of us a long time ago to figure out how widespread covid infections were and how much of the force was immune. I have to get an HIV draw each year, covid would be easy.

But they didn’t, because they just want to be able to report 100% compliance with the mandate and that everyone else is being punished accordingly.

 

[Hair Warrior]

It's... interesting... that your default view is to look at this through a political lense as opposed to a traditional military officer apolitical perspective. It's frankly only a politically charged issue to folks because they choose to look at it as such. None of the other vaccines that folks have all toed the line for over the years have been this frought...even anthrax. Perhaps you should look at this as something that apolitical and professional military officers have all agreed is a requirement for service just like short hair, uniforms, working hours, and all the other things that come with the service.

Noted, thanks. I’ll take that onboard. (Seriously.)

A few times in life I’ve inwardly felt that a situation was sexist (a woman being treated unfairly), or a situation was racist (a person of a racial minority being treated unfairly), when perhaps that feeling was incorrect. Usually I spoke up to defend the person I felt was treated unfairly, with varying success. I can’t change the way I feel. That doesn’t mean I allow a feeling to influence how I act. I try to approach every situation the same.

 

[Pags]

If someone has antibodies, you’re not exposing them to covid. That ship has sailed, as it were.

If the DOD actually cared about prevalence, outcomes, and the health of the force, they would’ve done a blood draw on all of us a long time ago to figure out how widespread covid infections were and how much of the force was immune. I have to get an HIV draw each year, covid would be easy.

But they didn’t, because they just want to be able to report 100% compliance with the mandate and that everyone else is being punished accordingly.

Or maybe the science is still developing and no one knows how long natural immunity lasts so they're advocating for the vax as the best way to get a baseline for immunity. I'd assume that the military medicine community is capable of developing their own analysis and assessment to meet mission need as they've done with other vaccines. It's a core competency of theirs and I'd be willing to be that this vax was always going to end up on the required shots list regardless of who was in the Whitehouse. Just like everything else on that list. And while your proposal I'm sure has some merit it's probably easier at the end of the day for the services to stick everyone and get back to the mission. As we all know the services often choose brute force over elegance.

 

[Gatordev]

If the DOD actually cared about prevalence, outcomes, and the health of the force, they would’ve done a blood draw on all of us a long time ago to figure out how widespread covid infections were and how much of the force was immune. I have to get an HIV draw each year, covid would be easy.

Maybe my response is more for the basic COVID thread, but you make an interesting point as it applies to the military. I was curious if I had been exposed before I got the stick(s), and not being in the military, even if there was such a test it wouldn't have applied to me, but it makes me wonder if I had been exposed and then also got the shots if I was even more protected. I'm not sure we'll know that answer for some time (or for how long it matters), but it's an interesting question.

I think on the flip side on why that may not have been a path of interest for DoD were the cases of those that did have anti-bodies early on that also go sick. Obviously the variants makes that harder to figure out the actual cause (or if the anti-body tests were truly accurate).

 

[SlickAg]

Or maybe the science is still developing and no one knows how long natural immunity lasts so they're advocating for the vax as the best way to get a baseline for immunity. I'd assume that the military medicine community is capable of developing their own analysis and assessment to meet mission need as they've done with other vaccines. It's a core competency of theirs and I'd be willing to be that this vax was always going to end up on the required shots list regardless of who was in the Whitehouse. Just like everything else on that list. And while your proposal I'm sure has some merit it's probably easier at the end of the day for the services to stick everyone and get back to the mission. As we all know the services often choose brute force over elegance.

I agree that the science is still developing. I disagree with you because I don't think that the military medicine community writ large is interested in rocking the boat and really seeing how widespread previous infection has been, because that would invalidate all the protective measures that have been taken. I similarly agree that a vaccine was always going to be mandatory, but I do find it interesting that rather than seeking information that would easily be available to them they're taking the path of least resistance. I'm not surprised in a sense, because we all know it's just a giant bureaucratic machine, but I don't appreciate their mandate in the sense that it'd be just as easy for them to mandate antibodies tests and, for the time being, excuse those with antibodies above a certain level.

Maybe my response is more for the basic COVID thread, but you make an interesting point as it applies to the military. I was curious if I had been exposed before I got the stick(s), and not being in the military, even if there was such a test it wouldn't have applied to me, but it makes me wonder if I had been exposed and then also got the shots if I was even more protected. I'm not sure we'll know that answer for some time (or for how long it matters), but it's an interesting question.

I think on the flip side on why that may not have been a path of interest for DoD were the cases of those that did have anti-bodies early on that also go sick. Obviously the variants makes that harder to figure out the actual cause (or if the anti-body tests were truly accurate).

I'm fairly certain I've had it. I'd love to know for sure, but that would possibly expose me to more hoops to jump through because I couldn't prove when I've had it, it would be an assumption based off my antibodies levels. My overarching issue with this mandate is that when you're messing with people's livelihoods and military careers, in my opinion, it deserves a little more fidelity than "shut up and get the jab".

Overall, I'd say I'm surprised at some peoples' responses in this thread, and the original thread, that would throw their shipmates to the sharks. If the vaccines work so well, what does one have to fear? Information is coming out each day that seems to show the vaccines have a dwindling efficacy, even the VP has said that now we're trying to protect the vaccinated? That's quite the course reversal from the orifginal guarantees about the vaccine effectiveness.

 

[Gatordev]

Overall, I'd say I'm surprised at some peoples' responses in this thread, and the original thread, that would throw their shipmates to the sharks. If the vaccines work so well, what does one have to fear? Information is coming out each day that seems to show the vaccines have a dwindling efficacy, even the VP has said that now we're trying to protect the vaccinated? That's quite the course reversal from the orifginal guarantees about the vaccine effectiveness.

I'm guessing some here are looking at it (right or wrong) through the lens of Anthrax. There were legit health concerns that came out of that. For now, there seems to be two arguments for those opposed to the COVID vax: 1) it's not as effective as I was told it was going to be and I don't like being told what to do, and 2) I'll probably grow a tail and a third testicle/ovary and I don't like being told what to do.

@SlickAg you've made multiple posts in the other thread regarding concern number 1), so I'm not suggesting you're pushing number 2). But number 2) (in a more serious manner) is a worthy concern, too. But if argument 1) is the hill some want to die on (in the ADSEP kind of way), then shots like the flu shot should be included their hill, as that's not anywhere near 100% effective, but still has value. And yet, 99.x% of the fleet accepts getting it every year.

I just offer that as perspective. Critical thinking about what DoD is doing to "your" body is a good thing, but as Pags said, accepting that DoD is neither precise nor elegant is like a spoon full of sugar and makes the medicine go down.

 

[Pags]

I agree that the science is still developing. I disagree with you because I don't think that the military medicine community writ large is interested in rocking the boat and really seeing how widespread previous infection has been, because that would invalidate all the protective measures that have been taken. I similarly agree that a vaccine was always going to be mandatory, but I do find it interesting that rather than seeking information that would easily be available to them they're taking the path of least resistance. I'm not surprised in a sense, because we all know it's just a giant bureaucratic machine, but I don't appreciate their mandate in the sense that it'd be just as easy for them to mandate antibodies tests and, for the time being, excuse those with antibodies above a certain level.


I'm fairly certain I've had it. I'd love to know for sure, but that would possibly expose me to more hoops to jump through because I couldn't prove when I've had it, it would be an assumption based off my antibodies levels. My overarching issue with this mandate is that when you're messing with people's livelihoods and military careers, in my opinion, it deserves a little more fidelity than "shut up and get the jab".

Overall, I'd say I'm surprised at some peoples' responses in this thread, and the original thread, that would throw their shipmates to the sharks. If the vaccines work so well, what does one have to fear? Information is coming out each day that seems to show the vaccines have a dwindling efficacy, even the VP has said that now we're trying to protect the vaccinated? That's quite the course reversal from the orifginal guarantees about the vaccine effectiveness.

What you propose certainly would be interesting and the results possibly fascinating.

 

[SlickAg]

I'm guessing some here are looking at it (right or wrong) through the lens of Anthrax. There were legit health concerns that came out of that. For now, there seems to be two arguments for those opposed to the COVID vax: 1) it's not as effective as I was told it was going to be and I don't like being told what to do, and 2) I'll probably grow a tail and a third testicle/ovary and I don't like being told what to do.

@SlickAg you've made multiple posts in the other thread regarding concern number 1), so I'm not suggesting you're pushing number 2). But number 2) (in a more serious manner) is a worthy concern, too. But if argument 1) is the hill some want to die on (in the ADSEP kind of way), then shots like the flu shot should be included their hill, as that's not anywhere near 100% effective, but still has value. And yet, 99.x% of the fleet accepts getting it every year.

I just offer that as perspective. Critical thinking about what DoD is doing to "your" body is a good thing, but as Pags said, accepting that DoD is neither precise nor elegant is like a spoon full of sugar and makes the medicine go down.

It's not about just the vaccine mandate for me.

As ea6bflyr pointed out to me, I'm just a has-been reservist who is no longer anywhere near the pointy end of the spear. There was no distinction made between me and someone who was an imminent deployer. Why did I have to spend the vast majority of the last year I spent on active duty unable to go out to eat at a restaurant? Unable to even go to the beach? Unable to work out at a civilian gym near my house, even, since the gym on base was closed? Unable to fly on a commercial aircraft to go to swim phys? It couldn't just be extended for another six months? (The Navy sent a C-40 to my base to take me and like ten other dudes somewhere for swim phys because they were the only ones who didn't require an ON-SITE ROM.) Here's a good one: I spent a week on an aircraft carrier (which I've now been made to understand doesn't count as underway time) only to fail my temperature check upon arrival back home because I was out on the base ops ramp unloading my bags from the cargo hold. Doc's answer? "It's probably because you've been outside in the sun for 45 minutes, if you feel bad don't come to work tomorrow". Of course, this was when you had to get your temperature taken just to be allowed onto the base. Speaking of the aircraft carrier, I was allowed to eat in the forward wardroom (only, couldn't go downstairs) with all of the other CQ players, but ship's company was NOT allowed to eat there and had to take their food to go from WR 3 and eat in their rooms or their workspaces. One of my buddies was prevented from jumping rope in the hangar bay at night because "PT has been secured during this underway".

I've got several more of these instances of how this has absolutely turned our collective lives' upside down. So I'm not super sympathetic to the old "the Navy just wants you to be safe" argument. I call BS on that. They've sacrificed the physical and mental well-being of their people since mid 2020. I'm glad everyone has been resilient as they've been, but everyone (myself included) put a lot of stock in getting the vaccines under the EUA because it would "get things back to normal and end the restrictions". That has turned out to be false in several ways. Fool me once...

P.S. I have never cared about the flu shot, and not many people do either, because the Navy doesn't restrict your freedoms, movements, liberty, and personal life because of it. So I guess what I'm saying is, this past year was very eye-opening to me at how horrendously wrong the Navy got it in regards to their policies about covid. Do I think a lot of that had to do with the TR, Capt Crozier, and SECNAV firing? Yes. And that would mean it was political, and not about the actual medical, mental, and personal well-being of our force. I sincerely believe if they cared about finding out exactly how many of us have actually had the virus, and using that data to analyze the effectiveness of the measures we took, by now we'd all have rolled up our sleeves to get a blood draw instead of a vaccine.

 

[Spekkio]

As @ea6bflyr pointed out to me, I'm just a has-been reservist who is no longer anywhere near the pointy end of the spear. There was no distinction made between me and someone who was an imminent deployer. Why did I have to spend the vast majority of the last year I spent on active duty unable to go out to eat at a restaurant? Unable to even go to the beach? Unable to work out at a civilian gym near my house, even, since the gym on base was closed?

To quote a CO of mine...

You didn't have to do any of that. You can decide to violate any requirement you want as long as you're willing to face the consequences.

So I guess what I'm saying is, this past year was very eye-opening to me at how horrendously wrong the Navy got it in regards to their policies about covid.

That's what happens when a carrier CO takes the 'nuclear option' and goes to the press, resulting in months of lost Ao for a strategic asset.

 

[Spekkio]

Or maybe the science is still developing and no one knows how long natural immunity lasts so they're advocating for the vax as the best way to get a baseline for immunity.

No one really knows how long the vax will last, either.

All of the funding resources were being poured into the vax. I have friends who work for Pfizer and the amount of money / overtime / strain to pump this thing out is insane compared to previous vaccines. Studying the effectiveness of natural immunity has taken a back seat to all of this.

Of note, the pac force doc told us that the vaccine was proven to last 3 months. When he naturally got the pressure of "wuddya mean, our crews have to get vaccinated every 3 months?!?" he backpedaled to 'welllll, we think it'll be good for 6-12 but expect some booster shots later this year."

 

[SlickAg]

To quote a CO of mine...

You didn't have to do any of that. You can decide to violate any requirement you want as long as you're willing to face the consequences.


That's what happens when a carrier CO takes the 'nuclear option' and goes to the press, resulting in months of lost Ao for a strategic asset.

To your first point: I don't think it was right to put people in that predicament to begin with...but let's just say that I think a lot of people ended up violating the page 13. Something like: never give an order you know won't be obeyed, or aren't willing to obey yourself?

To your second point: I think (and hope) he sleeps just fine at night. I don't want to rehash everything, but there's times when the risks outweighs the costs. We've pretty much all been taught that in a non-wartime situation, blue losses are unacceptable. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback that situation several months down the road, but I don't think Big Navy's hands are totally clean in that one either. Again, my opinion only.

 

[SlickAg]

No one really knows how long the vax will last, either.

All of the funding resources were being poured into the vax. I have friends who work for Pfizer and the amount of money / overtime / strain to pump this thing out is insane compared to previous vaccines. Studying the effectiveness of natural immunity has taken a back seat to all of this.

Of note, the pac force doc told us that the vaccine was proven to last 3 months. When he naturally got the pressure of "wuddya mean, our crews have to get vaccinated every 3 months?!?" he backpedaled to 'welllll, we think it'll be good for 6-12 but expect some booster shots later this year."

See the article I just posted in the original covid threat that shows a large scientific consensus (US and otherwise) against boosters. Including the soon-to-be-ex two head honchos of vaccine approval at the FDA.

 

[Spekkio]

See the article I just posted in the original covid threat that shows a large scientific consensus (US and otherwise) against boosters. Including the soon-to-be-ex two head honchos of vaccine approval at the FDA.

I'm just relaying the message conveyed by a 50-something year old O-6 who also signs his name with ', MD'

 

[SlickAg]

I'm just relaying the message conveyed by a 50-something year old O-6 who also signs his name with ', MD'

If that’s the plan, I want to emphasize (again), why haven’t they established some sort of baseline threshold for “immunity” and told everyone to prepare for antibodies testing?

 

[Spekkio]

If that’s the plan, I want to emphasize (again), why haven’t they established some sort of baseline threshold for “immunity” and told everyone to prepare for antibodies testing?

I have no idea. Like I said, once everyone naturally got into a mini-uproar over the 'vax immunity only lasts 3 months' line, he backpedaled with a lot of wishy washy other stuff.

On a personal level, I think that we have to stop tracking cases and re-start tracking fatalitilies as the primary metric. In particular, the states in my region have between 0-20 total fatalities from COVID-19 over the last 60 days because of high vaccination rates, and I'm sure if you dug deeper into those fatalities there are other contributing factors. However, the cases look like they did last fall.