You’re right, I don’t have to agree with the ‘analysis’ that taking the vax has a ‘good chance of killing them’. It’s demonstrably false.
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Navy Reserve COVID Vaccinations by October
- Thread starter snake020
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I’d argue he was predicting the non-sequitur based on past performance. Your interpretation and mileage may vary.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
A point of clarity when we're talking officers and the vaccine is that the moral line isn't just about themselves, it's passing that order to their men.
Yeah I disagree with it as well. But, I hope you see that's completely besides the point. You should strive to have compassion and understanding for others points if view, just as you hope your leaders would have compassion for yours that they disagree with. Threatening a bunch of people with loss of pensions, benefits, and a scarlet letter for the rest of their lives is not the compassion I'd like to see from our leaders.
Edited to add: my point is that if an officer resigns in lieu of following an order he has a moral conflict with, we would expect the response to his refusal to obey an order to be "we understand, and we'll find someone else. Thank you for your honorable service". But in this situation, we have thousands of people who are saying "I cannot get this shot because it might kill me. I will resign instead" and many of the people here are comparing it to maintenance malpractice or cowardice in the face of battle.
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Take a General (under honorable conditions) separation and move on. Just as the flag who disobeyed a “wag the dog” strike would likely finish out his career in a hurry, without a band.
Compassion for differing povs is an admirable trait that all leaders should have. Those that don’t eventually are revealed for lack of empathy. However, empathy has limits. Sometimes, ‘wrong and incorrect’ is just ‘wrong and incorrect’. It’s best to part ways. A general discharge under honorable conditions is not a scarlet letter by any means. No earned pensions are being taken away, what is being taken away is the opportunity to continue to serve while disobeying an order iot earn that pension.
The threats you mentioned in an earlier post are an obvious exception to what should be happening (reference my second sentence).
They're still threatening NJP or CM, as they have from the start. I doubt they'll follow through on it, but threatening it is wrong itself. They could easily take that off the table and communicate their true intentions, and they aren't.
Well, wrong is wrong in this case as well. This doesn’t provide any avenue for njp or cm, simply uninformed speech by anyone claiming otherwise: https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Portals/55/Messages/NAVADMIN/NAV2021/NAV21225.txt
From paragraph 5:
"The Vice Chief of Naval Operations retains authority for non- judicial punishment and courts-martial. "
Think of “retains” in this case as “doesn’t delegate”. They’re actually withholding that specific disposition authority (withholding from COs) at the highest level and instead directing COs to initiate adsep procedures.
If you refuse the vax and commit “other offenses”- ie- buy a fake vax card and present it, then all options are on the table.
It means the ship CO can’t take them to NJP just for refusing the vax. It has to be something more.
“The withholding of disposition authority in reference (c)…”
Edit: what UInavy said
Yeesh, obviously. What it also doesnt do is rule out NJP or CM as Ulnavy so rudely stated. It could say these options will not be pursued, but it does not, meaning previous threats are still on the table.
Regardless, were arguing semantics, and this message came out after my initial points arguing compassion were made. We agree that this is highly unlikely to be pursued. Overall, I'm actually pleased with that message and the decisions they made with it. They have an option of General or Honorable still, and I hope they choose honorable.
You’re not understanding. They are ruled out. I explained how above. If all someone does is refuse the vax, and there is no other misconduct, there is zero legal avenue for them to go to njp or cm. There is no other ‘interpretation’. Those are the legal facts. Stop trying to create something that isn’t there.
If that “98% first shot” number is true, it won’t be that many people. Maybe they can afford to be generous.
I have at least two direct reports who are unvaxxed here at Big State U, and the rules are that they will be unable to charge federally funded projects after 8 Dec unless they have exceptions, etc. For what they do, that means they’ll be laid off.
One has come to me for advice. What I’ve told him is, first, see a doc for an exception if you’re concerned, but then do the math. Make a rational risk decision. Probability of hospitalization, ICU, long term effects, or death for either getting the vaccine or getting Covid. There’s enough data out there now.
In that case I respect people making an ethical stand against a ludicrous executive order forcing people to get a shot or lose their jobs. That should be something we can all agree is unacceptable.