Naval Aviations "One" Problem...

[robav8r]

Your latter comment is more what I’m getting at… Not to mention both parties have done a fantastic job of jacking up the deficit in the last 20-30 years.

Anyone want to check what the average fed fund interest rate in 1981 was? Almost 4 times what is today. Inflation rate? 3 times what it was compared to today.

Demographics have changed as well - Boomers are retiring and taking the most powerful economic driver of growth in world history (Not just the US, Most developed nations are facing the same issue). Younger generations have different views on work life balance (This thread is a micro-example). That is going to drive up labor costs, and in turn, increase inflation due to supply/demand with human capital. Gen X and Millennials don’t have the bodies for 1 to 1 replacement. I mean just look at the airline industry. Imagine that happening across and entire economy. Nurses? Shortage. Law Enforcement? Shortage. Health professionals? Shortage. Transportation? Shortage.

One can only logically assume we’ll be seeing elevated interest rates for the next 5-10 years as Millennials enter their career peak earnings. It’s not as simple as people think... Not to mention re-shoring of several industries as once profitable cheap labor overseas starts to balance out with the US (largely due to the same macroeconomic issues)… but other countries are far worse off than the US.

Saved round and completely pointless point made by @robav8r …We don’t need a 600 ship Navy because 1 DDG can pack as much firepower as 3 or 4 ships (or more) from that era.

Threadjack complete.

I deployed on FF-1065 and DDG-52, familiar with the capability differences. You still haven’t addressed the deficit and defense industrial base issue which was the genesis of my comments. Are we good to go? Will current and projected revenues take care of the deficit and all the mandatory/discretionary spending we have coming down the pike? Uni-party talking points aside, I am genuinely interested to hear what ANYONEs ideas are wrt to fixing our industrial base, especially shipbuilding and repair - it’s a complete a shit show.

 

[JTS11]

If you're dissatisfied with the "Uniparty", maybe look into the great plans of RFK Jr or Cornell West, and write them in?

Or don't vote?

 

[AllAmerican75]

Sometimes for the AD military but it's most times for the civilian world now. Now that I've been out of the AD military and live in a non military town I see how many married couples both have careers, and kids, and aren't having to choose which is more important than the other. They may have to face 1 major move in their lives (something other than across town) unless they are the ones choosing it.

There are a few jobs that continue to remote work, but I don't think it's as prevalent as you're leading it to be. Perhaps the Navy should allow a lot more remote work.

Ultimately we're talking about recruiting and retaining talent in society today. When you have to say, "When you join, or decide to stay in, the Navy, you and your spouse *will* have to decide who's career is more important because we're going to move you around every two to three years." To someone who also has the option to work for Zoetis or Pfiser or Striker, companies like that, and pretty much stay in Western Michigan and make the same amount of money it's a no brainer.

There are far more remote jobs than there were 5 years ago and they are growing by the day. I see it quite a bit in the corporate world and having just interviewed for mostly remote work, I can tell you that most white collar professions outside of those that require being in person (sales, trial lawyers, doctors, etc.) there are plenty of opportunities. I have provided several examples in this thread. In fact, I don't know many spouses who don't have a remote job. Nearly every spouse I know has jumped on the remote work or gig economy bandwagon if for no other reason than to make some spare change and keep busy while the kids are in school.

We do far more to squander talent than just prevent spouses from working remotely or in-person. We routinely take forever to hire and fire people. Our performance review and promotion system is antiquated and selects for some of the worst leaders possible (See all of the SWO and Sub COs who've been fired over the last 15 years), and I can vouch for that from personal experience. We fuck up simple HR paperwork and don't even apologize for it (Central PSDs, NAVPERS web portals, closing PSDs, eliminating PS positions, hiring contractors for everything, etcetera). We don't invest in our people nearly enough through formal schooling (CBT instead of hands-on training and OJT instead of A or C schools) or training (Just look at the difference between the USAF Junior NCO leadership training and the bullshit PPTs we put our new 3rd Classes through). We expect our people to do more with less every single year and burn our best and brightest out. We subject them to grueling OPTEMPOs and then turn around and give them back-to-back sea tours with no rest in between. Our living conditions in shipyards and on base are absolutely atrocious. We don't actually give a flying fuck about Sailors' mental health and many punish Sailors for seeking out help or use it as a way to process them out of the Navy.

But no, a college-educated officer and his wife who happens to be a high-power defense attorney up for partner who have to make the decision over whether or not to go back to sea duty or jump out onto civvie street are somehow the most pressing and intractable problems.

Choose your rate choose your fate works both ways. If the Navy wants to offer up gems of duty stations like Iwakuni or Lemoore then they can expect to continue to have manning issues.

Guess what, this isn't the 1950s. Women have advanced degrees these days and don't want to waste all of that schooling on being someone's online photoshop assistant. To ask they do so shows just how out of touch you are.

I know it's the 21st Century, that's why I tried to be gender neutral in my language. I've worked with female officers married to men and even homosexual officers (Egads!) and their spouses' needs are no different than that of a male officer. married to a female woman. The fact of the matter is that in the military we expect that you will be gone from home A LOT. We expect that you will need to go to places where our nation has decided we need people stationed in order to provide power projection and logistics support forward outside of the US. Ultimately, this is a need because we are the world's police and continue to have a very forward-leaning and interventionist foreign policy. If we didn't, we could be more like our allied partners who don't move nearly as often and can homestead with far more ease. Imperial militaries have always had to deal with being stationed outside of their homeland which is one of the reasons so many forced bachelorhood on their military forces.

I agree, but I don’t think the military is or should consider itself to be in a 1:1 salary competition to a large civilian company. They offer other intangibles and, as others have stated, pay is not the needle mover that one might think.

I like the remote work idea though. Seems like a lot of staff work could be done that way, at least at lower classification levels.

Remote work may be closer than you think. To give you a peek behind the curtain, PEO Digital and PEO MLB are investing a lot of time and money into Microsoft 365, Azure VDI, and other products that enable more and better remote work. There are even things happening in the classified space to try and enable remote access. The big issue is whether commanders will embrace remote work and move away from mandatory working hours or in-person meetings. So far, our culture has gotten in the way far more than technology has in limiting our ability to adopt new work models.

 

[gparks1989]

There are far more remote jobs than there were 5 years ago and they are growing by the day. I see it quite a bit in the corporate world and having just interviewed for mostly remote work, I can tell you that most white collar professions outside of those that require being in person (sales, trial lawyers, doctors, etc.) there are plenty of opportunities. I have provided several examples in this thread. In fact, I don't know many spouses who don't have a remote job. Nearly every spouse I know has jumped on the remote work or gig economy bandwagon if for no other reason than to make some spare change and keep busy while the kids are in school.

We do far more to squander talent than just prevent spouses from working remotely or in-person. We routinely take forever to hire and fire people. Our performance review and promotion system is antiquated and selects for some of the worst leaders possible (See all of the SWO and Sub COs who've been fired over the last 15 years), and I can vouch for that from personal experience. We fuck up simple HR paperwork and don't even apologize for it (Central PSDs, NAVPERS web portals, closing PSDs, eliminating PS positions, hiring contractors for everything, etcetera). We don't invest in our people nearly enough through formal schooling (CBT instead of hands-on training and OJT instead of A or C schools) or training (Just look at the difference between the USAF Junior NCO leadership training and the bullshit PPTs we put our new 3rd Classes through). We expect our people to do more with less every single year and burn our best and brightest out. We subject them to grueling OPTEMPOs and then turn around and give them back-to-back sea tours with no rest in between. Our living conditions in shipyards and on base are absolutely atrocious. We don't actually give a flying fuck about Sailors' mental health and many punish Sailors for seeking out help or use it as a way to process them out of the Navy.

But no, a college-educated officer and his wife who happens to be a high-power defense attorney up for partner who have to make the decision over whether or not to go back to sea duty or jump out onto civvie street are somehow the most pressing and intractable problems.

I don't expect the Navy to completely bend over backwards for the defense attorneys. It's the military and there are inherent sacrifices. But the instability of the military and some atrocious duty stations is disruptive to a lot of careers, particularly those that require licensing. And while remote work has grown significantly, you're still overselling it as a panacea. I have had great difficulty finding a remote/hybrid job in my chosen industry because I'm living somewhere professionally disadvantageous, but good for my wife's career. But we can actually have discussions about professional trade offs because an unknown variable isn't going to fly into my inbox from Millington.

If the Navy believes or knows that there is a recruitment and manning issue, they have to address all factors. I know people whose spouses had careers that were disrupted by PCS moves to places like Fallon. Those moves cost the families six figures in lost earnings which is a big number to a lot of people. And their skillset didn't translate into the remote work options, and there weren't opportunities in the new duty station. Sure they could go work at a Starbucks. But at the very least, it would have been nice for that factor to be included in either the detailing discussion or decision. And I'm not talking about someone who curates a basketweaving museum or something uber niche.

Now, everything I'm saying is anecdata. So perhaps I'm overselling the issue. Or the Navy is addressing it. But the question is often brought up about why do people leave the Navy, and this element is a big one in my mind.

EDIT

I will note that my community had better luck than most when it came to stability and spousal careers. Plenty of folks who have stayed in one spot for ~12 years before they PCS to a new duty station. But that's more happenstance than anything else.

 

[Gatordev]

Now, everything I'm saying is anecdata. So perhaps I'm overselling the issue. Or the Navy is addressing it.

Anecdotes can still be valuable data and I don't think you're overselling it. In my case (admittedly a couple of years time-late), the Navy did address it by saying, "Well, that's not my problem. That doesn't factor into the detailing."

 

[JTS11]

Anecdotes can still be valuable data and I don't think you're overselling it. In my case (admittedly a couple of years time-late), the Navy did address it by saying, "Well, that's not my problem. That doesn't factor into the detailing."

As a former monitor/detailer, it really didn't. I believe the green side did a better job (could be wrong), but we all know what we signed up for...after your initial obligation, you've got options. Ultimately, the needs of the service wins out (Hopefully your wishlist and the service's reqs collided at an agreeable point...a majority of the time they did) But that 10% that didn't, that's where it was tough.

Also, not sure how you'd solve for detailing to shitty duty stations. Didn't everyone know Lemoore or 29 Palms was in the equation?

Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's nothing a field grade officer will solve...Also, not sure if it's solvable.

 

[Hopeful Hoya]

I don’t think anyone reasonable is arguing that NAS Lemoore can realistically go away, but the fact that it’s a “Master Jet Base” with one gate onto ops side, no parking whatsoever (I see younger Enlisted walking 20+ minutes in 110 degree heat in the summer), and a Subway in a double wide and a couple of food trucks for food options is completely laughable. Not to mention that BAH is lagging the cost of living pretty significantly.

None of this stuff is new news, but even as someone who doesn’t completely hate Lemoore, going to places like NASNI and seeing that my peers are 1) living in a better location 2) have better amenities on base, and 3) are getting paid more to do so (in terms of BAH relative to cost of living) can be agitating to say the least. And despite years of gripes there doesn’t seem to be much to show for it.

 

[Bad_Karma_1310]

I don’t think anyone reasonable is arguing that NAS Lemoore can realistically go away, but the fact that it’s a “Master Jet Base” with one gate onto ops side, no parking whatsoever (I see younger Enlisted walking 20+ minutes in 110 degree heat in the summer), and a Subway in a double wide and a couple of food trucks for food options is completely laughable. Not to mention that BAH is lagging the cost of living pretty significantly.

None of this stuff is new news, but even as someone who doesn’t completely hate Lemoore, going to places like NASNI and seeing that my peers are 1) living in a better location 2) have better amenities on base, and 3) are getting paid more to do so (in terms of BAH relative to cost of living) can be agitating to say the least. And despite years of gripes there doesn’t seem to be much to show for it.

This is 1000% true. I don’t actually mind the location as much as other people do, but the base itself fucking blows. I haven’t seen or heard of a single effort to improve it since I’ve been out here. It’s only actually gotten worse.

 

[sevenhelmet]

This is 1000% true. I don’t actually mind the location as much as other people do, but the base itself fucking blows. I haven’t seen or heard of a single effort to improve it since I’ve been out here. It’s only actually gotten worse.

This is true. I’ve been going TDY to, or stationed at, NAS Lemoore since I was a MIDN in 2004, and it has not gotten better. They were excited back then for the new gym. Nothing else has changed in 20 years, except more squadrons, more traffic, and less parking available in the narrow crack between runways.

Further, the barracks is a complete nightmare for enlisted troops living there. Broken furniture that doesn’t get replaced, leaks, mold, etc. It’s worse than laughable, it’s a travesty.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I don’t think anyone reasonable is arguing that NAS Lemoore can realistically go away, but the fact that it’s a “Master Jet Base” with one gate onto ops side, no parking whatsoever (I see younger Enlisted walking 20+ minutes in 110 degree heat in the summer), and a Subway in a double wide and a couple of food trucks for food options is completely laughable. Not to mention that BAH is lagging the cost of living pretty significantly.

None of this stuff is new news, but even as someone who doesn’t completely hate Lemoore, going to places like NASNI and seeing that my peers are 1) living in a better location 2) have better amenities on base, and 3) are getting paid more to do so (in terms of BAH relative to cost of living) can be agitating to say the least. And despite years of gripes there doesn’t seem to be much to show for it.

1000%. It isn't like Navy Whidbey is the crown prince of Naval Air Stations, but the facilities and family stuff here make Oceana, let alone Lemoore, look like trailer parks. I don't know if it is growler money or P-8 money, but IMO, they made this middle-of-nowhere (it isn't really, but that is how the Jax people view it) apparently undesirable duty station pretty nice in comparison. You can't turn Lemoore into something it isn't, like removing the poop smell and heat and fog and other undesirables. But they could certainly improve the offerings there.

 

[sevenhelmet]

1000%. It isn't like Navy Whidbey…apparently undesirable duty station…

😆. Anyone who thinks Whidbey is an undesirable duty station has had a cush ride through the Navy.

 

[CorsairDriver]

They should have never got rid of the Corsair, Tomcat, or NAS Cecil Field ... 🤣 In all seriousness, all you have to do is go look at the 2024 and proposed future budgets to see that Carrier Aviation (TACAIR) will be a 50/50 Blended Flight Deck of manned/unmanned aircraft in the future and Surface/Subsurface Strike will be increased. There are way more detailed references out there, but these two are relatively factual synopsis worth reading and reviewing their references as well.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2024/march/naval-aviation-and-weapons-review

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2023/december/strike-warfares-inventory-problem

With the improvements in Surface Fleet (DDG) capabilities (TLAM packages and SM-2/3 packages), newer satellite intel capabilities and DDG/SSGN operating efficiencies, much of the past TACAIR strike capability will be absorbed there. I know, I know, we have a couple of Supers shooting down drones and such in the Red Sea, but as we used to tease the Tomcat Pukes, "your killing them one at a time, the Corsairs are killing them by the hundreds." Similarly here, two-three DDGs, now with the abilities to reload at sea with some weapon packages makes it just more effective and efficient for our threats today. And I know, they can't whing those TLAMs 750nm to deliver AGM-88s into China as we did in Desert Shield, but that's going to be a different landscape of conflict all together.

The future of TACAIR Naval Aviation was been handed over to those that don't realize the cockpit workload you'll have in a single seat F-35C with a couple of drone buddies ... I can't even envision a future strike mission anywhere, in any situation, that this would be a preferable option. I'd kinda like to have my wingmen concerned with my six and able to protect it as well! I can see maybe diversionary CAP or SUCAP, but it's very limited. What "was needed" was the understanding we "might" need to roll back into tons of conventional gravity weapons, "knee in chest, knife in teeth one day" when new fangled electronic assets are exploited beyond usefulness.

"Put fused weapons on target, on time, first pass, with safe return to the ship" ... Just not the same Navy, not the same mentality, and not the same missions as before.

 

[Gatordev]

As a former monitor/detailer, it really didn't. I believe the green side did a better job (could be wrong), but we all know what we signed up for...after your initial obligation, you've got options.

I take your point, but on the TAR side, it was more nuanced. At that point in my career, there were a plethora of options that they could work in an effort to make it palatable for many (but of course, not for all). And they used to do that. It used to be a civilized process where you talked to your detailer who gave you a realistic list of options (read: Reserve Centers or PERS) and you went from there.

By this time, however, they were hiding everything, including the billet list that used to be public, and would only tell you the NOSCs on the list available "sometime" in your window, but no info if they've already been spoken for (which many had). Instead you got a "if you want a NOSC, you'll get what you get," instead of working out why a NOSC in rural WV might not be a great choice for a spouse with a very specific set of certifications that needed a major city center.

The irony in all of this is I would have preferred the smaller rural location and it would have been me who was making the sacrifice for the going to the larger command. In the end, I was very fortunate to have an O-6 to ask to intervene and just extend me so I could retire current and not have my spouse go unemployed.

 

[JTS11]

By this time, however, they were hiding everything, including the billet list that used to be public, and would only tell you the NOSCs on the list available "sometime" in your window, but no info if they've already been spoken for

Yeah, that seems messed up. I'm not that familiar with the reserve side of things though.

 

[WhiskeySierra6]

The future of TACAIR Naval Aviation was been handed over to those that don't realize the cockpit workload you'll have in a single seat F-35C with a couple of drone buddies ... I can't even envision a future strike mission anywhere, in any situation, that this would be a preferable option.

This was exactly the hand wringing that happened with the 4 to 2 Prowler/Growler transition. "But who's going to analyse the oscilloscope and put in the 42 coded characters to make a jamming assignment?". As it turns out you can automate a lot of stuff and the machine does it better than we can. I flew both and, as a pilot, I was able to do infinitely more in the Growler because the 4 redundant FCCs made it so I didn't have to worry about constantly trying to keep the plane from departing like I did in the Old Girl (TM).