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Naval Academy Looking at Cruise Behavior

M

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
It is the forced feminization of the Armed Forces.

Some of it was post-tailhook fallout, most of it was an agenda some were just looking for an excuse to push.
 
Rubiks06

Rubiks06

Registered User
pilot
Loyalty...

Intruder Driver said:
I think you are correct. During my time there in the early to mid-'70's, classmate loyalty was order number one. When I lived in Annapolis from 1997 to 2002, we sponsored one of my classmates' sons and he often remarked how the classmate loyalty his Dad talked about seemed to be missing and, in fact, was addressed in a negative way by several faculty and company officers.
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I think the "thought" of classmate loyalty is there....just maybe misrepresented. MIDS now days seem to think being loyal is "not ratting each other out".....or helping each other to cover something up when someone gets caught doing something they shouldn’t. Keeping your buddy from getting into a bar fight (or helping him out if you cant stop him) or passing out drunk in the lobby of a hotel are what I believe to be true classmate loyalty...looking out for each other. I think there is a difference there. Maybe im a product of this misconstrued loyalty and ive got it backwards. I guess im not really sure if there is a way to "teach" his kind of loyalty. I agree with phrogpilot that it should go all the way until you reach the point of lying, cheating or stealing and then they are on their own. Unfortunately that line doesn’t seem so menacing or important now days people seem to fall into the "im going to be a rat if I don’t lie for this person".. I saw it ....a lot.
On a good note I also saw many a MID being helped out of a situation they were not in the capacity to get themselves out of. Its like anything, you see the bad in the paper....not the good. I guess that’s my two cents. Im sure to someone else it may appear different....I guess it’s that whole perspective thing, it probably looks much different from the outside looking in.
 
MIDNJAC

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
phrogpilot73 said:
Concur. Also, I have noticed that certain classes there do not take care of their own as much as I remember it. We looked out for our classmates up to the point of an honor offense, and then they were on their own. More than once I've heard the mid my wife sponsors say that it's not her problem.
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This is absolutely true from what I have seen in NROTC at least, and it has some significance in terms of recent offenses at my unit. I don't know what it is, but during the last couple of years I have seen underclassmen do some seriously stupid stuff, with almost no evidence of "looking out". DUI's with another mid in the passenger seat, vandalism, literally running naked through the quad (which was actually kind of funny).....and with no other mids saying "dude....WTF? You're staying here tonight cause you are too drunk to stand up". If I'm out with buds from my class, I know that someone will say/do something before things get out of hand. Maybe its just the difference between being 22-24 and 18 yo, but at some point these fools need to learn. I did some dumb things when I was younger, but I never got caught, and that is at least in part because of the guys who were with me.

It also doesn't help that (at least for NROTC types) when someone in the battalion commits a major offense, the unit officers basically handle everything (to the extent that even the midshipmen on the battalion staff don't even necissarily know what happened). IMO it would be helpful to additionally put some of these dumb***es at the mercy of the upperclassmen. Not saying that the staff doesn't handle things right, but it is the difference between your parents telling you no, and your older brother who you look up to (or at least respect in a different way) telling you that you are an idiot, and then going the extra mile to look out for you in the future. We can't help them if we don't know what is going on....just my .02 as a senior mid.

\rant
 
Rubiks06

Rubiks06

Registered User
pilot
USNA has taken this idea and run with it. As of last year the honor and conduct system are all completely MID run. Mids are dealing out the punishments and mids are imposing the sanctions. MIDS are even reccomending for seperation or retention. Granted when you get to that point the Officer oversight is there but they have made a great step towards actually letting the mids have some sort of leadership.
I guess i cant speak to the NROTC thing because I did not do ROTC but it may be different when you live with these people and go to school with these people 24/7...most of the ROTC that i have seen through my wifes college and friends from home was that the ROTC guys really didnt spend much time at all with each other. They wore uniforms once a week and maybe had a class or two together. My point being you would think it would be different when you spend just about every waking moment with these people. I dunno? I agree that people need to step up though.
 
MIDNJAC

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
Rubiks06 said:
USNA has taken this idea and run with it. As of last year the honor and conduct system are all completely MID run. Mids are dealing out the punishments and mids are imposing the sanctions. MIDS are even reccomending for seperation or retention. Granted when you get to that point the Officer oversight is there but they have made a great step towards actually letting the mids have some sort of leadership.
I guess i cant speak to the NROTC thing because I did not do ROTC but it may be different when you live with these people and go to school with these people 24/7...most of the ROTC that i have seen through my wifes college and friends from home was that the ROTC guys really didnt spend much time at all with each other. They wore uniforms once a week and maybe had a class or two together. My point being you would think it would be different when you spend just about every waking moment with these people. I dunno? I agree that people need to step up though.
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there is a noticeable divide between the STA-21/OC's and MECEPs and the midshipmen, but I would say that within each of these groups, we spend a lot of time together. By the time that you are a junior/senior mid, you are intimately familiar w/ at least most of the other mids, if not many of the active duty folks as well. That sounds like a great idea that I think I'll bring up next monday at our staff meeting. Thanks for the info! :)
 
Rubiks06

Rubiks06

Registered User
pilot
MIDNJAC said:
there is a noticeable divide between the STA-21/OC's and MECEPs and the midshipmen, but I would say that within each of these groups, we spend a lot of time together. By the time that you are a junior/senior mid, you are intimately familiar w/ at least most of the other mids, if not many of the active duty folks as well. That sounds like a great idea that I think I'll bring up next monday at our staff meeting. Thanks for the info! :)
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For the most part we liked it. It definately took some getting used to by the officers and the MIDS mostly because now the mids had a huge responsability and the Officers had to kind of step back and guide instead of dictate. I think overall...it does a good job of defeating this US vs. THEM mentality. Its now we are policing our own. Or by seeing the paper...at least they are trying.
 
Pitchlock

Pitchlock

Member
pilot
"The most sacrosanct principle governing a midshipman's behavior, was the unwritten rule 'Never bilge a classmate,' which required midshipman to overlook any violation of the rules by a fellow midshipman short of honor code violations."
John McCain, Faith of my Fathers
 
Rubiks06

Rubiks06

Registered User
pilot
Pitchlock said:
"The most sacrosanct principle governing a midshipman's behavior, was the unwritten rule 'Never bilge a classmate,' which required midshipman to overlook any violation of the rules by a fellow midshipman short of honor code violations."
John McCain, Faith of my Fathers
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...good book.....Great Man
 
P

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
Rubiks06 said:
For the most part we liked it. It definately took some getting used to by the officers and the MIDS mostly because now the mids had a huge responsability and the Officers had to kind of step back and guide instead of dictate. I think overall...it does a good job of defeating this US vs. THEM mentality. Its now we are policing our own. Or by seeing the paper...at least they are trying.
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Policing your own is the way it should be - that's how it is in the fleet. Not to mention that it has always worked for the honor concept, why not the conduct system?

I don't want to be misconstrued - I'm sure the bulk of the USNA mids are good kids, but I have noticed a disturbing trend both in the fleet and with today's midshipman that they are not willing to go out on a limb for their "shipmate." By going out on a limb I mean: dragging their ass out of a bar because they're too drunk, getting them a cab, correcting them when they're out of line, etc... The trend I see is "It's not my problem, and I don't want to get in trouble with him." That's a BAD trend in my mind...
 
Intruder Driver

Intruder Driver

All Weather Attack
pilot
Pitchlock said:
"The most sacrosanct principle governing a midshipman's behavior, was the unwritten rule 'Never bilge a classmate,' which required midshipman to overlook any violation of the rules by a fellow midshipman short of honor code violations."
John McCain, Faith of my Fathers
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That was our guideline.
 
xmid

xmid

Registered User
pilot
Contributor
The problem is with the administration. The idea of not bilging a shipmate is gone. They now drill in to mids heads that not bilging a shipmate is something to be ashamed of. I can remember being told that knowing about a conduct offense and saying nothing was just as bad as committing the offense. Hell, our first weekend after plebe summer we had some plebes get drunk at some casino and their classmates bilged them... after only being at USNA for 6-8 weeks... USAFA even added to their honor code the phrase "nor tolerate among us those who do" specifically so that they could prosecute those who DIDN'T bilge classmates for an honor offense. I loved reading books like "Flags of our Fathers", "Sense of Honor", and "Nightingale Song", but todays academy bears little resemblance to the one that existed back then.
 
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