NATOPS check vs. "Safe for Solo"...

[MIDNJAC]

Disclaimer: I don't know the T-45 NATOPS. That said, I would guess the above is not correct. You perform different (yes, different, not just additional) maneuvers in the -57 and the -34 than you do as a "true" SNA, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's something additional for the T-45 NATOPS. If I'm wrong, so be it, but there's a reason why IPs get additional stuff (thus covered in a NATOPS check) than the studs do.

Quite possibly true, but I would say that the 3 different NATOPS checks I've had in the Hornet have been very similar (if not identical) in scope to my safe for solo in the T-45, aside from the obvious differences in airframes and procedures. At the end of the day, you are signing for a multimillion dollar aircraft as not only the sole crewmember, but also the PIC/Aircraft Commander in either case, even if you do it only 30-40 times in the -45. The various follow-on safe for solo flights in the -45 were geared towards verifying that you were good to go on the mission conduct in a block of flights (generally an exposure or two, a check, and some solos) and not re-checking that you are up to the baseline standards of safe operation of the aircraft within NATOPS limits.....though of course that did bite more than a couple of folks in later stage flights.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Your annual NATOPS/Inst checks will be in the sim in the Hornet community FYI. I don't know specifically for the Growler, but I'd guess it is the same deal. As for T-45 safe for solo vs fleet/FRS NATOPS qual, I think the difference is in semantics, as you essentially prove the same thing in either, but the outcome is different I guess. FWIW you will get your initial F-18 NATOPS qual very early in the FRS.

I always thought it was strange that hornet types seem to do their NATOPS qual very early in the hornet rag, whereas it's the last thing you do in the harrier rag.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I always thought it was strange that hornet types seem to do their NATOPS qual very early in the hornet rag, whereas it's the last thing you do in the harrier rag.

Yeah, it seems like what you describe is pretty much the fleet standard for most a/c, aside from the Hornet. I did my initial qual prior to my 10th flight in the jet, with my instrument card coming shortly thereafter. I'd argue single seat, but that obviously is the same deal for you guys.

 

[C420sailor]

They were big on getting our NATOPS/Instrument checks done early so we could ferry aircraft out to various det locales.

 

[Recovering LSO]

The guys talking about additional maneuvers in the -57... I'm not sure if that's applicable to the Goshawk.? We fought the airplane solo (capable of recovering OCF), dropped bombs from it solo (capable of putting your nose to the ground and not hitting it), and CQ'd in it solo (just generally bad-assery).

The early NATOPS / INST check also has a lot to do with SOP weather restrictions for dudes without those quals. Get them knocked out early and OPS doesn't have to worry about keeping T birds around or losing X's to 300' OVC.

 

[Gatordev]

The various follow-on safe for solo flights in the -45 were geared towards verifying that you were good to go on the mission conduct in a block of flights (generally an exposure or two, a check, and some solos) and not re-checking that you are up to the baseline standards of safe operation of the aircraft within NATOPS limits.....though of course that did bite more than a couple of folks in later stage flights.

You're missing the point of a TRACOM NATOPS check. Again, remember it's written by the TRACOM for the TRACOM. The baseline standards are higher than necessary for a stud. Why? Because there is potential that the NATOPS qual'ed pilot (ie, the IP) is going to get put into situations that the stud generally isn't (and shouldn't) going to be. For example, OCF if a huge part of the T-34 NATOPS check and actually some of the procedures are different than the FTI maneuvers. There's almost no OCF for a stud because if he's getting into it, he should be doing so with an IP in the back. As Squorch mentioned, the -57 check requires boost-off landings, something that a stud doesn't really need (but something he'll get later in the fleet in a fleet aircraft).

 

[Recovering LSO]

You're missing the point of a TRACOM NATOPS check. Again, remember it's written by the TRACOM for the TRACOM. The baseline standards are higher than necessary for a stud. Why? Because there is potential that the NATOPS qual'ed pilot (ie, the IP) is going to get put into situations that the stud generally isn't (and shouldn't) going to be. For example, OCF if a huge part of the T-34 NATOPS check and actually some of the procedures are different than the FTI maneuvers. There's almost no OCF for a stud because if he's getting into it, he should be doing so with an IP in the back. As Squorch mentioned, the -57 check requires boost-off landings, something that a stud doesn't really need (but something he'll get later in the fleet in a fleet aircraft).

Do you rule out the possibility of OCF during a PA solo?

 

[Gatordev]

The guys talking about additional maneuvers in the -57... I'm not sure if that's applicable to the Goshawk.? We fought the airplane solo (capable of recovering OCF), dropped bombs from it solo (capable of putting your nose to the ground and not hitting it), and CQ'd in it solo (just generally bad-assery).

Again, the -45 NATOPS may just be different, but if it is, it's unique because all the other TRACOM aircraft have additional requirements. I'm not saying that's bad or good, just what it is (if true). I would say that's because of having a second pilot, but I'm not sure that logic works since all the other aircraft are technically single-piloted, as well.

 

[Gatordev]

Do you rule out the possibility of OCF during a PA solo?

Damn, you're replying faster than I can type... Rule it out? No. But if they're doing the maneuvers according to the SOP, they shouldn't go OCF. They might stall, but that's it.

 

[MIDNJAC]

My only point is that T-45 safe-for-solo vs other orange and white community safe-for-solo may be apples to oranges. If you get to ACM in the -45 and can't do your OCF flight properly, or can't recite the procedures verbatim, you are going to ready room down or just simply die because you will be alone. During a good portion of the jet syllabus, there is nobody in the cockpit to save you from yourself or the jet. Unless the IP's had some sort of secret maneuver that we weren't privy to, I don't know what would have been material we didn't cover in the checkrides. There wouldn't have been a point in only teaching certain maneuvers to students, since everything we did in the jet was also done solo at some point, and of course any problem you could encounter would likely be solo as well (at least according to Murphy's Law ).

 

[insanebikerboy]

Do you rule out the possibility of OCF during a PA solo?

Hindsight being what it is, as a stud in the T-34 you are lead by hand through the syllabus and the maneuvers you can do. Yes, OCF is always a possibility but realistically for 99.9% of the stuff a stud knows how to do (and actually has the balls to pull off), neutral/idle will get the T-34 out of OCF flight in a heartbeat, personal experience proves this too . I've never been through the IUT syllabus for the T-34 but from what I understand they do inverted spins and the like, which is a different recovery.

So, the stud is prepped for OCF but he's not shown the entire gamut of it simply because the stud doesn't and won't get the aircraft in that position. May be a big risk but either it's never happened (yet) or the few studs who got themselves into really bad pickle got out of it and were too scared to tell anyone when they landed.

 

[MasterBates]

OCF departures and spins in the T-34 IUT syllabus (which is what I did as a Helo-E2 transition) were far more violent/disorienting than anything I did as a student in the Wiener.

I'm trying to remember back, but I think the 45 has some similar student vice IUT differences in the training. I still have my FTIs somewhere (DITY weight) but I'm not at home.

 

[HooverPilot]

Could it be that most SNA's who get a safe for solo "endorsement" are not winged Aviators? Thereby not being egible for a NATOPS qual?

 

[Gatordev]

My only point is that T-45 safe-for-solo vs other orange and white community safe-for-solo may be apples to oranges. If you get to ACM in the -45 and can't do your OCF flight properly, or can't recite the procedures verbatim, you are going to ready room down or just simply die because you will be alone. During a good portion of the jet syllabus, there is nobody in the cockpit to save you from yourself or the jet. Unless the IP's had some sort of secret maneuver that we weren't privy to, I don't know what would have been material we didn't cover in the checkrides. There wouldn't have been a point in only teaching certain maneuvers to students, since everything we did in the jet was also done solo at some point, and of course any problem you could encounter would likely be solo as well (at least according to Murphy's Law ).

I think we're arguing two different things, which may be where the disconnect (for me) is. I see what you're saying. Hoover may be on to something, but I don't have a good reason why you couldn't be NATOPS qual'ed from what you're saying, only that there might be something additional in there. As for the other platforms, it makes sense that there are additional items on the check to ensure that the IP (or even regular NATOPS qual'ed, non-IP) knows how to deal/handle them.

Could it be that most SNA's who get a safe for solo "endorsement" are not winged Aviators? Thereby not being egible for a NATOPS qual?

Maybe. Now that you mention it, that does sound familiar and something I thought I'd heard here about the HTs. I'd be curious to know if there is anything different in MB's pub, only for my own personal knowledge.

The OCF FTI in the T-34 isn't a NATOPS requirement or have anything to do with NATOPS. It's a FTI to teach an IP/NI/ANI how to give the OCF portion of the NATOPS check. But if you're not in the TRACOM, it's not required reading to become an ANI (although it has really good info).

 

[scoober78]

Damn, you're replying faster than I can type... Rule it out? No. But if they're doing the maneuvers according to the SOP, they shouldn't go OCF. They might stall, but that's it.

That's always true. If everything goes as planned, you aren't going OCF on any flight except the OCF demo...which oh, by the way is a separate IP qual anyway.

Just for the record, I'm not arguing that SNA's should get one necessarily, I was just curious why if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we call it a potato.