Leaders of Men or Aviators???

[A4sForever]

I don't want to start a shit-storm over this ... truly .... there's better things to start it over than this ---BUT:

There's another thread currently going on about AF or Navy or Marines .... blah, blah, blah .... kind of like the same monthly question we get herein, i.e. "which is best"??? The comment that keeps creeping in, chiefly from the USMC members of the website, includes something to the effect of .... "I wanted to be a USMC Aviator because I want to lead Marines..."

That's .... "I want to lead Marines...." You WANT to be in AVIATION to "lead Marines" ....it's almost like you feel you NEED to say it.

It seems to be a mantra ... not tryin' to hassle anyone, so just keep cool and keep reading. Or don't ....

Sooooooo .... my question is: why are you going Aviation, then??? You know ... if you want to "lead Marines"???

Why not Infantry?? Armor?? Artillery?? There's many, many more Marines in those warfare diciplines to lead than in an Aviation squadron.

Having been faced with that decision a long, long time ago --- I opted for the USMC over the surface Navy (the Navy which I was enamored with and which I'd followed my whole life to that point -- but Aviation was not probable as my eyes were not 20/20) ... and as a result, I was (very willingly) headed for USMC Infantry, taking Vietnamese for my college-required language, and had a recruiting station poster on my wall stating that I desired to "BE A LEADER OF MEN" .... I think most of you know the drill. That became my purpose, my goal, and I was headed down that path with gusto ....

THEN .... 2 years later .... the eyes got "better" .... a shaky 20/20 good enough to qualify for Aviation --- so another look at Naval and USMC Aviation --- and that's the road I took instead of continuing with the Marine "Grunt/Ground" Option. I became a Naval Aviator, and I'm glad I was one INSTEAD of being a USMC Aviator (for lots of reasons -- remember, it was a different time, too)

I never considered "leading sailors" as a principal reason to become a Naval Aviator. I did it -- obviously --- but if I had TRULY wanted to be a "LEADER OF MEN", I would have went black shoe, SeaBee, or something else. Not Aviator. Probably USMC .... mebbe even Army.

Soooooooooooo .... trying to be honest and consistent with the original question .... WHY do some of you purport to want to "LEAD MARINES" (a laudable goal, to be sure, and I was headed that way once) but yet you are seeking membership in a portion of the USMC that probably has less to do with "LEADING MARINES" than the rest of the Corps, considering the USMC and it's missions as a whole.

So how come??? When you're probably not going to "lead" Marines any more than the average USN Aviator is going to "lead" Airmen ....

It's an honest question. A serious question.

Over .....

 

[Cavt]

I think it has a lot to do with the way we are "programmed" from the start. Your OSO from the begining tells you that you are a leader of Marines, you hear it every single day at OCS, leader of Marines, you get it shoved down your throat at TBS, leader of Marines.

Case in point, had a good buddy at OCS get sent home from Seniors because when asked why he joined the Marines he said because he had always wanted to fly, rather than saying he wanted to lead Marines. Another friend DOR'd from Primary because he really wanted to lead Marines in the way he thought he was going to, but realized he never would as a pilot.

Did I join the Corps to lead Marines, yes in a way, but not in the same way a guy going in who wants to be a grunt. I do wish on occassion that I could have a platoon of Marines, but it isn't what I was made for, I'm not a grunt, thats why I applied for an air contract. If I was a grunt I would have applied for a ground contract.

It wasn't until getting to flight school that I realized I could finally say, yeah I joined the Marines to fly and to be a Marine, but I probably wouldn't have joined the Marines if I couldn't fly. I would have never dreamed of saying that at OCS or TBS...

 

[Rasczak]

I want to fly.

I choose the Marine option in case something happens that keeps me from going air. If I can't go Marine aviation, I'd much rather be a grunt out in the mud, than one of those Navy fella's that sits in a room all day watching gauges on a nuke.

Sure I want to be a leader of men. I want to have more responsibility than the regular Joe, but I also want to fly.

 

[Harrier Dude]

I agree with your sentiment and understand your question. Cavt has a good point about the programming, but you get to see the wisdom of it as you go along in your career.

Just like a USN naval aviator (vice USMC), leading Marines (or sailors in their case) becomes more and more of what you do as you become senior instead of just flying. If you don't enjoy it (or think of it as some sort of "calling"), then I think that you'll be less and less satisfied with your career.

At one point in time (TBS) I drank way too much Kool Aid and was ready to drop my air contract to be a grunt. That's all you hear about at TBS. Infantry and Leading Marines. It took some time for me to realize that the two are not tied together. You can have your cake and eat it too. Lead Marines and have an MOS that you enjoy as well.

There is absolutley nothing wrong with wanting to fly. I love it and would have it no other way (now that the Kool Aid has worn off a little). There's also nothing wrong with wanting to be a grunt/tanker/arty guy. All of us end up leading Marines. The problem is typically with guys who see the "easy air contract" with PLC as a short cut to flying a jet and wind up in a culture that makes them miserable.

The Marine Corps is a culture that values leadership more than anything else. That is NOT to say that the navy or the air force doesn't value leadership, they just don't quantify it in the same way or "shout it from the mountain tops" like the Corps does.

Similar to A-4s, I was navy and switched to USMC. Not the same path, but I, too have had a taste of both services. They have slightly different cultures. I cannot speak from great experience about the USAF, but I would imagine that you'd be able to fly more, lead less there. Just my opinion on that one.

As a practical matter, saying "I joined the Marines to be a pilot" is taboo. Particularly at OCS/TBS. It's similar at USN AOCS (back when they had AOCS), but not to the same degree. The fact that leading subordinates becomes your primary job after awhile in naval aviation will make the "I only want to fly" people miserable in the long run.

 

[PropStop]

I joined to do power point presentations. The flying was just vanilla.

Seriously, I did join to fly first. I do enjoy leading, though I'm not in that position now. I have learned a lot about managing people; skills that will come in handy later.

 

[phrogpilot73]

The Marine Corps is a culture that values leadership more than anything else. That is NOT to say that the navy or the air force doesn't value leadership, they just don't quantify it in the same way or "shout it from the mountain tops" like the Corps does.

I agree with Harrier Dude on this. HAL and I discussed this when I was in Vegas, and it is the culture of the Marine Corps that causes us to think this way. Yes, it is true I would have more of an opportunity to lead if I were a tanker, arty, or grunt. It is also true that SWO's, Submariners, etc... lead. The important distinction is leading Marines. Look at it this way - if something were to happen, what would you want to do? Most guys joing the USMC because if they can't fly - they want to lead Marines.

This indoctrination starts early, as the Marine Corps requires EVERYONE, regardless of MOS or Rank to receive basic infantry training. It is constantly pounded into your head that you're either infantry, or support. Every Marine on active duty knows that they are there to support the young Marine with a rifle. It takes a special individual to lead these men.

I joined (enlisted) because I wanted to be a Marine. I was a 6047 in an F/A-18 squadron, and pretty soon I wanted to be a Marine pilot. I knew that if something happened and I couldn't fly, I wanted to be a Marine officer and lead young men and women that were in a position that I had started off as. While it may be me drinking the Kool-Aid, I think that at some point everyone has to in order to make the big green machine work the way it does.

 

[Son of a Grunt]

For a long time I wanted to be a grunt b/c I could more lead Marines then in aviation; but, In this modern day and age I think I can serve the Corp much better by flying and helping the forward mission(that and flying is a whole heck of a lot more fun). Though, I do hope to be able to lead in some way.

 

[usmarinemike]

Yeah, I've wrestled with this one, too. I want to fly, but it is in my blood to lead. I've had a taste of it as an NCO and now I can't get enough. I'm not an egomaniac. It's just how I am. Can I have both? Of course. They're not mutually exclusive. Although a pilot doesn't have a platoon of trigger-pullers at his disposal there are opportunities to lead. I can't imagine that all of the aviators stay in a room at the end of the hallway watching The View while the NCOs wrangle the rest of the squadron. There's always loads of training to be done, even more loads of maintenance that always needs to be done, and there's always other missions and deployments. It takes leaders to make it all happen and for everyone to emerge on the other end in one piece. Those enlisted Marines will go to the depths of Hell and back (yes, even the maintainers with their long hair and unpressed cammies) for the right leader. Remember the mantra that everyone around here spits out every day when some college or high school kid comes on and asks some inane question about wanting to be a pilot. "You're an officer first, and an aviator second."

I would dare anybody to equip two squadrons with the same equipment, an equal number of Marines, and the same tasks. Give one squadron a group of aviators that doesn't want to do anything but fly, and give the other a group of aviators that want to fly but also thirst to lead. Which would perform better? The first one will probably get everything accomplished because somebody will step up, most likely the E5s through E7s, but will not be as efficient as the latter and the enlisted morale will probably be in the shitter. Class A mishaps and DUIs are pretty much inevitable unless there's a s-hot staff sergeant or gunny to keep things glued together.

The Marine pilots who replied further up in the thread made great points also. Rep to them.

I'm absolutely thrilled that I got my air contract but if something happens (i.e. NAMI whammy) I'll be happily reporting to LAR a few weeks later if I have my way. I would expect the attitude of my peers to be the same. Contrast that to what we've seen plenty of around here that goes something like,"I've been NPQ'd from flight. I was in NROTC for 5 years and all I ever wanted to do was fly so I didn't pay attention to anything else. My life is over."

I just have to quickly cover up my experience in air support operations. (Seriously though, there are great troop leadership opportunities in that community until you get to be about a senior captain or junior major.)

 

[Gatordev]

A great perspective from HD and phrog. Sometimes I think the (over)emphasis that A4s is talking about is summed up w/ this:

they just don't quantify it in the same way or "shout it from the mountain tops" like the Corps does.

Having worked w/ a large group of Marines now for several years as well as Marine studs, for the most part, everyone understands we all have leadership duties, but sometimes you get the guy (and it's certainly in the minority) that drinks so much of the above kool-aid and then thinks the Marines MUST be better/busier/whatever leaders. This is usually when I tune out.

I guess it goes back to the jet/helo argument. The leadership requirements are different, not better, worse, easier, harder, but just different.

 

[MasterBates]

I joined to FLY. I'll be honest, the only other job I would have come in for was NFO. (my eyes were borderline)

I knew and still know that leading sailors is part of the bargain. And I do it as well as I can, just like flying.

In all honesty, I have only been outside the TRACOM for 3.5 years out of my 7 years. I was in a DIVO type role for less than a year of that. More of my leadership was as an Aircraft Commander, or as a senior JO.

But, I joined to fly. Prox suit on, flame away.

 

[Boxxer]

I spent 26 years in Tacair and worked with Navy, Marine, Air Force and Army officers...no matter what service you are in or what job you hold, you will lead men if you are an officer. It does not matter if you joined to fly, drive tanks, ships or sit in a silo. The rest is just BS.

 

[bunk22]

From what I've seen in my community as of late, the Navy's not interested in putting leaders in charge anyway. Sure, they put men or women in position to lead but there's whole lot of it going on. Unless spending all day in your office on the computer, flying as little as possible, planning your next joint tour, being afraid or hesitant to speak in front of your sailors for fear of being mocked or scrutinized, being the most timid officer at the weekly DH meeting, do what I say, not what I do attitude is leadership, the community I just came from needs some serious help.

 

[A4sForever]

Funny thing about "leading men" .... one of my classmates ... actually, he was @ 1-2 years ahead of me -- USMC, Grunt -- was on the CBS nightly news being interviewed during the 1968 Khe Sahn siege during my senior year .... I nearly dropped the TV dinner off my lap in astonishment as I saw "Chuck" talking to the microphone stuck into his face, smilin' as always, as if it was "just another day; just another walk in the park" .

Years later, he was relating some "stories" to some of us @ a school ROTC reunion. He led -- personally -- a bayonet charge (this -- in the day of automatic weapons) -- a spur of the moment surge-type "fix bayonets -- follow me -- let's get it done" across a trench line into some NVA trenches and bunkers. The USMC grunts totally carried that particular day on that particular hill as the PAVN regulars were so surprised at the suddeness and shock of the attack that they -- (can we say it ??): the PAVN ran. His guys were as surprised as the NVA when he originally gave the order .... but they followed his "lead" .... without hesitation.

Anything I did or ever wish I had done in the "leadership" category paled by comparison to this event. Chuck is dead today -- cancer -- he died young in his middle 30's -- the story is he (and "they") got "sprayed" a few times too many .....

So yeah, I've "led men" in my Naval career, Regular and Reserve, although I joined to "fly off of carriers" (even won some "awards" for "leading men" during nuke and pancake breakfast excellence type evolutions, ala Air Force ribbons ) --- and , of course, I've "led" crews over the course of my civilian airline career as well .....

But some say and think that just because you're an "officer" ... you're going to "lead men " .... that's wishful thinking at best. And possibly ... as someone already related: B.S.

You can pump yourself up in the mirror in the morning ... do it every day if you like .... tell yourself you're going to "lead men" today ....

But I say you don't "lead"--- no one does --- unless people follow ....

 

[brownshoe]

But some say and think that just because you're an "officer" ... you're going to "lead men " .... that's wishful thinking at best. And possibly ... as someone already related: B.S.

You can pump yourself up in the mirror in the morning ... do it every day if you like .... tell yourself you're going to "lead men" today ....

but you don't "lead"--- no one does --- unless people follow ....

Yes sir well said. I was lucky enough to have served with a LT. Jim Kar – I’ll stop there- you might know him. He’s a member at www.skyhawk.org. He served several tours in Nam with the AF after being cut down by a navy XO named Cunnin – I’ll stop there you might know him too. Jim was testing a maintenance bird on a Saturday and came upon a COD. Anyway Jim started doing canopy rolls, thumbs up and all from the passengers, but the COD pilot called in. He left the navy for the AF and never looked back. Flew Thud’s as I recall.

I talked with him maybe 15 years ago on the phone, what fun. This is a naval officer I’d follow anywhere. He had a MG as well.

Steve

 

[DocT]

I walked into my OSO's office asking to be put in the Marine Corps. I had no intention of trying to fly. I was told that "if I wanted to be a Marine officer I would take the ASTB". The rest is history. I was used to make mission. However, now I have what I originally wanted...to be a Marine. PLUS I have the opportunity to fly. That's more than I could ask for.

The reasons I have for wanting to be a Marine are simple: I have always been attracted to the culture and it's a family tradition. I can't speak to the leadership aspect of being an officer of Marines as compared to the other services because I have zero fleet experience (TBS doesn't count).