Insider Scoop on Navy OCS

[obligatory1]

@lawgal, there is absolutely no need to be nervous about OCS. I am a recent OCS commission, and I can assure you that the program is extremely easy to get through. The new CO of OTCN Newport has relaxed almost all of the stress and rigor that used to characterize the commissioning program. As professionals, the drill instructors and chiefs never explicitly articulated their frustrations; however, it was glaringly obvious to all of us how much their hands have been tied. I did not know a single one of my classmates that thought the program was challenging in any substantive way. Perhaps the only difficult aspect of the program is watching individuals who have no business becoming naval officers earn their commissions. It truly is a shame what the new OTCN administration has done to a proud tradition - the new CO sees OTCN as more of an officer factory than an officer qualifying curriculum.

Roger that. I graduate soon and have seen noticeable changes in just the time I've been here. From what I've been told they are rolling out a new curriculum soon that incorporates more realistic situations like learning to write evals and what not. Fortunately I think some of the heat has been unsecured for the lower class though which is nice to see. It just wasn't right to see ballistics secured in the chow hall for one class as indocs amongst other things.

 

[jtmedli]

@lawgal, there is absolutely no need to be nervous about OCS. I am a recent OCS commission, and I can assure you that the program is extremely easy to get through. The new CO of OTCN Newport has relaxed almost all of the stress and rigor that used to characterize the commissioning program. As professionals, the drill instructors and chiefs never explicitly articulated their frustrations; however, it was glaringly obvious to all of us how much their hands have been tied. I did not know a single one of my classmates that thought the program was challenging in any substantive way. Perhaps the only difficult aspect of the program is watching individuals who have no business becoming naval officers earn their commissions. It truly is a shame what the new OTCN administration has done to a proud tradition - the new CO sees OTCN as more of an officer factory than an officer qualifying curriculum.

That's a total shame. I saw it going downhill when I was there 2 and half years a go.

 

[Spekkio]

Roger that. I graduate soon and have seen noticeable changes in just the time I've been here. From what I've been told they are rolling out a new curriculum soon that incorporates more realistic situations like learning to write evals and what not. Fortunately I think some of the heat has been unsecured for the lower class though which is nice to see. It just wasn't right to see ballistics secured in the chow hall for one class as indocs amongst other things.

The program wasn't hard when I went through 5 years ago, either. It was merely a gut check -- will you put up with 10 weeks of what effectively amounts to hazing to be a Naval Officer inbetween teaching you common military protocol and some bare-bones basic stuff about seamanship and navigation. But as long as you showed up with the right mindset, getting through the program was not difficult and the vast majority of candidates eventually graduated. I think you may have bought into too much hype and drama 'sea stories' on the internet.

Keep in mind that attrition and candidates sitting in H costs the Navy a lot of money, and money isn't flowing very freely these days. And things like eating speghetti with a spoon to an 8 count procedure, doing flutter kicks on your rack screaming the Marine's Hymn at the top of your lungs while a DI throws your locker all over the room screaming "IP minus zero one" every so often, or scrubbing underwear in a shower stall doesn't make candidates into better officers. It just gives ridiculous stories to tell in API/power school/supply school/whatever follow on training your designator has, then everyone laughs at you when you meekly walk into the wardroom on your first sea command not knowing any proper wardroom etiquitte.

 

[obligatory1]

The program wasn't hard when I went through 5 years ago, either. It was merely a gut check -- will you put up with 10 weeks of what effectively amounts to hazing to be a Naval Officer inbetween teaching you common military protocol and some bare-bones basic stuff about seamanship and navigation. But as long as you showed up with the right mindset, getting through the program was not difficult and the vast majority of candidates eventually graduated. I think you may have bought into too much hype and drama 'sea stories' on the internet.

Keep in mind that attrition and candidates sitting in H costs the Navy a lot of money, and money isn't flowing very freely these days. And things like eating speghetti with a spoon to an 8 count procedure, doing flutter kicks on your rack screaming the Marine's Hymn at the top of your lungs while a DI throws your locker all over the room screaming "IP minus zero one" every so often, or scrubbing underwear in a shower stall doesn't make candidates into better officers. It just gives ridiculous stories to tell in API/power school/supply school/whatever follow on training your designator has, then everyone laughs at you when you meekly walk into the wardroom on your first sea command not knowing any proper wardroom etiquitte.

Ill agree with you there, but its persevering through all the craziness that give someone a sense of accomplishment when its all said and done in my opinion. I think there's a fine balance, extremes are rarely a good thing.

 

[Spekkio]

There's no perservering, though. Take a step back and realize that throughout the last 10-20 years of OCS, the only way to attrite was to quit or get seriously injured.

I just define "hard" as something that many people have a realistic chance of failing even when they do their best. Becoming a pro athlete is hard. Passing OCS is easy, and I say that as someone who showed up barely able to complete the 1.5 mi run with a good low, which was 12:45.

It seems like the Navy is trying to do a better job screening applicants before they get there and reducing emphasis on the 'try to make candidates DOR' aspect of OCS because, as I mentioned before, attrition is expensive. Does it really do any good to have the taxpayer pay someone an E-5 salary for 3 weeks while he practices to do the proper number of pushups? Does his ability to do pushups really affect how effective he'll be as a pilot or SWO?

 

[AllYourBass]

There's no perservering, though. Take a step back and realize that throughout the last 10-20 years of OCS, the only way to attrite was to quit or get seriously injured.

I just define "hard" as something that many people have a realistic chance of failing even when they do their best. Becoming a pro athlete is hard. Passing OCS is easy, and I say that as someone who showed up barely able to complete the 1.5 mi run with a good low, which was 12:45.

It seems like the Navy is trying to do a better job screening applicants before they get there and reducing emphasis on the 'try to make candidates DOR' aspect of OCS because, as I mentioned before, attrition is expensive. Does it really do any good to have the taxpayer pay someone an E-5 salary for 3 weeks while he practices to do the proper number of pushups? Does his ability to do pushups really affect how effective he'll be as a pilot or SWO?

Having recently graduated OCS, I agree. I'm in API now, and I'm watching friends trying their hardest at the academics but still coming up short. And we aren't even at Primary yet. At OCS, you just had to stick around. Sure, it was a place we didn't want to be. Like being at the DMV for three months, with more sweat. But at API—which I imagine isn't even the most challenging part of flight school—we're all stressing nuts just to make the cut. It's the first time I've actually seen capable people end up sitting in stash, waiting to redesignate (if they're lucky enough) despite their best efforts.

 

[croakerfish]

@lawgal, there is absolutely no need to be nervous about OCS. I am a recent OCS commission, and I can assure you that the program is extremely easy to get through. The new CO of OTCN Newport has relaxed almost all of the stress and rigor that used to characterize the commissioning program. As professionals, the drill instructors and chiefs never explicitly articulated their frustrations; however, it was glaringly obvious to all of us how much their hands have been tied. I did not know a single one of my classmates that thought the program was challenging in any substantive way. Perhaps the only difficult aspect of the program is watching individuals who have no business becoming naval officers earn their commissions. It truly is a shame what the new OTCN administration has done to a proud tradition - the new CO sees OTCN as more of an officer factory than an officer qualifying curriculum.

This is the saddest thing I have ever heard. Hopefully the next CO will correct this atrocity and turn out officers who can say "I went to OCS" like it means something when asked their commissioning source.

 

[BackOrdered]

Roger that. I graduate soon and have seen noticeable changes in just the time I've been here. From what I've been told they are rolling out a new curriculum soon that incorporates more realistic situations like learning to write evals and what not. Fortunately I think some of the heat has been unsecured for the lower class though which is nice to see. It just wasn't right to see ballistics secured in the chow hall for one class as indocs amongst other things.

This is the saddest thing I have ever heard. Hopefully the next CO will correct this atrocity and turn out officers who can say "I went to OCS" like it means something when asked their commissioning source.

The same was said 5 years ago when I went through. Everyone had it worse than the next and don't get the AOCS guys started. They would tell you they were the last real OCS program from the moment the move from Pensacola was announced.

 

[LFCFan]

Wow. People are really making it sound like OCS has turned into a cakewalk. It isn't. It still sucks. People still DOR. People still get rolled (but less frequently than in the past, maybe because you have to wait 3 weeks instead of 1 or 2 to roll back in).

Should more time be spent in the sand pits? Probably.

Eating by the numbers? Good riddance.

I do think that it could be harder. Maybe that would have stopped one or two of my classmates who shouldn't be officers from getting through. Regardless, I didn't want any more pain and discipline when I was going through it. I'm sure some good people DORed from AOCS who would have been great officers if their DI didn't hate them or made up some bullshit like "class 14-**, well then only 14 of you will graduate!" (see elsewhere on AW) I'd take the OCS I went through over some nonsense like that.

At the end of the day, I still think it is better than going through ROTC and doing virtually nothing comparable.

I'll panic when they pull the DIs altogether.

 

[BackOrdered]

or made up some bullshit like "class 14-**, well then only 14 of you will graduate!" .

If we are thinking of the same thing, try 12 graduates. It was absurd.

 

[LFCFan]

If we are thinking of the same thing, try 12 graduates. It was absurd.

We are. Right after I posted I thought "hmm...14 seems a little high..."

 

[BackOrdered]

We are. Right after I posted I thought "hmm...14 seems a little high..."

Yeah, they had to have another class help with indoc and such because the 12 were stretched way too thin. Incidentally, the last class of that fiscal year under that same DI (who to his credit was a beast to have) had over 50 candidates, most nukes, most graduated.

Yeah, if you think OCS is anymore or less than what it is, I have a great deal on a retirement Igloo in Fort Lauderdale, FL.

 

[Spekkio]

We are. Right after I posted I thought "hmm...14 seems a little high..."

Ahh, the Black Ninja...

Regardless, just because HE rolled those candidates doesn't mean they actually left the pipeline. This is the drama I was referring to. They could have rolled into another class and graduated like the vast majority of candidates do if they fail an evolution twice.

I do think that it could be harder. Maybe that would have stopped one or two of my classmates who shouldn't be officers from getting through.

The mission of OCS is "To develop civilians, enlisted, and newly commissioned personnel morally, mentally, and physically and imbue them with the highest ideals of honor, courage, and commitment in order to prepare graduates for service in the fleet as Naval Officers." That's really a fancy way of saying to teach candidates proper military bearing and protocol, how to handle stress and learn time management, and the importance of attention to details.

It's a program designed to 'develop' personnel, not 'screen' them or 'qualify' them. If it was, the program has been doing a poor job at that for a very, very long time. If the people you refer to didn't deserve to get a commission, they should have never gotten to OCS in the first place.

I still think it is better than going through ROTC and doing virtually nothing comparable.

I disagree about the 'better' part. The people who went through NROTC show up to their first sea command knowing a lot more about shipboard life and how the Navy works than I did. At least we had nuke school that kind of puts you all on even footing at first, but when it came to the whole operational/forward stuff they had more exposure to how things work due to their midshipmen cruises.

Turns out spending time doing pushups in a sand pit didn't actually prepare me to do my day job. Amazing.

What I will say is that I think the mentorship that you get spending 3 months with Marine SNCOs is far superior to whatever it was they got, but by the time JOs leave their first tour they are going to be the type of leaders that the Front Office makes them.

 

[BusyBee604]

It just seems to me, the reduced mental/physical pain in the 'new' OCS program, will result in reduced pride, and boring recollections when "sea stories" are shared years down the road. Sort of like the fate of past colorful traditions like the Polliwog to Shellback initiation crossing the Equator, or the CPO initiation. As usual, PC involvment!
BzB

 

[LFCFan]

Ahh, the Black Ninja...

Regardless, just because HE rolled those candidates doesn't mean they actually left the pipeline. This is the drama I was referring to. They could have rolled into another class and graduated like the vast majority of candidates do if they fail an evolution twice.

In this particular story, he drove people to DOR, not just roll. And I think this was an AOCS story, not something more recent like the Black Ninja. Either way, a waste of time and money.

It's a program designed to 'develop' personnel, not 'screen' them or 'qualify' them. If it was, the program has been doing a poor job at that for a very, very long time. If the people you refer to didn't deserve to get a commission, they should have never gotten to OCS in the first place.

This is one of those in theory vs in reality things. It is very much a screening tool - if you can't deal with it, you don't make it. As for whether or not they should have got in, maybe an interview could have derailed one of them. Other than that, I'm not sure how the Navy would have known without a test like OCS. And if people just shouldn't get in to begin with, we would have zero attrition at OCS other than injuries.

I disagree about the 'better' part. The people who went through NROTC show up to their first sea command knowing a lot more about shipboard life and how the Navy works than I did. At least we had nuke school that kind of puts you all on even footing at first, but when it came to the whole operational/forward stuff they had more exposure to how things work due to their midshipmen cruises.

Turns out spending time doing pushups in a sand pit didn't actually prepare me to do my day job. Amazing.

I should have said better as in more rigorous. I'll let those with more experience than me address the value of midshipman cruises. I've heard they are more fun than actual training.

It just seems to me, the reduced mental/physical pain in the 'new' OCS program, will result in reduced pride, and boring recollections when "sea stories" are shared years down the road. Sort of like the fate of past colorful traditions like the Polliwog to Shellback initiation crossing the Equator, or the CPO initiation. As usual, PC involvment!
BzB

No worries about that, we still have lots of good stories to tell. The class at my current schoolhouse is 100% OCS, and the knife hands and gruff voices come out all the time.