I'll have a jet for two please, preferably near the window...

[ElCidAv8tor05]

this question is mostly directed at the strike&strike/fighter types, but everyone feel free to chime in. I'm wondering from those that have flown in both single seat(A4s) and multi seat aircraft which do you prefer? Did you enjoy havinig control of every aspect of the flight; comms, A/C control, weps employment etc, to yourself or did you like having someone there to help you out (read: someone to talk to on long boring flights :icon_mi_1 )? I think the coordination and teamwork that it takes to fly with someone sitting behind you would lead to alot more camraderie in the RR and off duty times. On that same track, have any of you flown with a guy (IPs not included) that you absolutely hated and thought was a total idiot? feel free to throw down some sea stories. I apreciate any feed back. Lord willing I'll be zoomin around in a Rhino before too long and I'd like to know if any of my preconceived notions on flying with a RIO/WSO ( I think it will be awesome!!!) are valid.

-"Easy"

 

[Schnugg]

This has been debated and discussed here sort of ad naseum. But, I see you're new to the forum, so welcome and enjoy. Make sure to read the FAQs as well.

Excuse me as I'm just gonna watch from the wings...

r/
G

 

[bunk22]

I'll say this, I'm to stupid to fly alone. So I'm going to go with muli-piloted aircraft. The only time I've flown alone though was T-34C's and T-2C's so I'm not exactly an expert

 

[Kolja]

I don't much enjoy flying alone. Because it probably means I'm either already in the parachute, or about to be.

 

[phrogpilot73]

First, you should eliminate the notion of "someone to talk to on a long, boring flight." That's the reason my buddy transitioned from F/A-18D WSO to Financial Management. Most of the pilots that were accustomed to single seat flying sometimes wouldn't even talk to him in air.

If you're flying an aircraft with more than one crewmember, make sure that your entire crew is involved from the get go. Hence the reason for the term "crew." I personally love flying a multi-piloted platform, and I have crewchiefs and aerial observers on my crew as well. While I may have signed for the bird, and am ultimately responsible - every single member brings something to the table. When I was going through the syllabus for Division Lead, I had a crew chief that had already gone through WTI. As I started to slowly get overwhelmed with the flight, I brought him up in the tunnel and asked his advice from a tactics perspective, and additionally had him help take the load off (since my copilot was evaluating me). Guess what, I got an above on crew coordination and was proposed for WTI. Flying is not what makes you a pilot, it's everything else.

That same crewchief was aboard my dash two when I was returning to Al Asad Air Base in Iraq from Al Taqqadum, in less than optimal weather. Visibility was so bad that dash two had to turn on his IR searchlight and train it on me to see my aircraft. When the crewchief couldn't see anything to the side or behind him, he crawled up in the tunnel and sat on the map case. When the non-flying pilot asked what's up, his reply was "I can't see sh!t in back, and it sounds like you guys are working hard up front. So, I figure I'll be most useful backing you guys up watching the gauges. Don't worry about the engines, transmissions, hydraulics, or the master caution panel, I'll watch those. Just focus on flying and get me home safe." I only wish that he wasn't getting out, it'll be tough to replace a crewchief with that much SA.

Additionally, regardless of rank - you need to foster a relationship with your crew that allows them to challenge/question what you're doing. Remember, you're not responsible for just your life, but the life of everyone else on board. So if they're not comfortable, maybe it's time to knock it off.

 

[skidkid]

Phrog guys discuss tactics?
(No smiles but the sentiment is there)

 

[phrogpilot73]

Phrog guys discuss tactics?
(No smiles but the sentiment is there)

Not very often, but when we do the conversation lasts 5 minutes or less, and usually switches to getting drunk or hot chicks... After all, there's only so many ways you can land in a zone!

Which reminds me of a story of frustration with a skid guy. We went over to their ready room to ask about what the historically hot areas were so we could build our route and make our fuel plan based on avoiding them. After being lectured about crossing the river perpendicular, avoiding palm groves, etc... (i.e. basic $hit), we walked out of the ready room pissed off. I guess he didn't realize that he was talking to 3 WTI's, and a British WTI equivalent (the Brit, by the way has more combat experience than he can even dream of). That's the kind of guy that gives your community a bad name. The other dude we were talking to went on the boat with us, so he kind of rolled his eyes and told us what we needed.

 

[skidkid]

Thats what you get for asking the 1stLt newest AHC. A counter story comes from my buddies on a MEU going into Afghanistan at the beginning of OEF. They were making their maps. As all the skid co-pilots were furiously making maps all the way to the Tora Bora region the Phrog CO yes I said CO (who was also a WTI) says to them "You skid guys are AFU always making work for yourselves you dont need maps that far north. As they get to Rhino and begin planning ot go north the only guys with maps were the skid guys which prompted one brand new captain to say to the CO "Gee Sir its a good thing we are AFU or we couldn t plan this op".

IT works both ways, I love you guys and some of my best friends are Phrog guys one who might be in your squadron but just as we have that a bunch of "that guys" who is an @ss and lectures you on basic tactics as though you were retarded. You guys have a bunch of "that guy" dude I just fly from point A to point B and land dude I dont need to worry about that other stuff i.e acts retarded. It is all about having a professional realtionship and getting to know each other so you know who the retards are and who the players are.

We have really jacked his thread but maybe he'll see the light and be at South Whiting anyway

 

[phrogpilot73]

We have really jacked his thread but maybe he'll see the light and be at South Whiting anyway

Here, Here!!

 

[A4sForever]

..... I'm wondering from those that have flown in both single seat and multi seat aircraft which do you prefer? .....

Actually, no preference. It kind of boils down to the aircraft and the mission. Trite, granted, but I think that was it for me. I doubt that's the answer you were seeking, but there it is .... I've had great experiences in both single seat (@ 2000 hours) and multi-crew (@ 17000 hours) .... no real preference for either.

"Talking" is not high on my list of things to do on a 12 hour trans-Pac --- even though you do it. There's lots of dead air on a long night flight ... and that's O.K. Think of it this way: After flying for 10+ days with the same crew --- what have you got left to talk about??? You usually get caught-up the first few days if you haven't seen them for a while ....

In the civilian world I like to delegate and share the workload. I believe in "training" my junior crewmembers --- not a check-ride; just giving them some responsibility ... so I probably delegate somewhat more than another Captain might do on a regular basis . I've been in some heavy-duty emergencies in the airlines as well --- again, I delegate, follow the procedures, and am in control of the "cockpit". It's worked and I've gotten positive feedback more than once .... As far as being a Captain and crew-feedback and "seniority", I tell the guys that no one has a good day every day and I expect them to tell me when they see something they don't like. I'll do the same for them. If they're wrong --- no problem. If they're right --- we'll get it "fixed" and fly the airplane. No one has all the answers ...

In the military? It's always nice to have someone there to hold your hand when you need it. But then again ...... As far as "talking" ... I did not experience as much of it in the military as in the civilian world of flying ... just my experience. But picture this: it's a black night, lightning is flashing all around , you're in and out of clouds, you have vertigo, you are totally screwed up, and you are approaching "3/4 of a mile, call the ball" ... it's sure nice to have someone sitting there to whom you can say: "I'm really screwed up ... keep me honest .... back me up .... let's get it done".

So multi crew or single seat??? Again, no preference. Sometimes you want to share that great sunrise out over the Pacific ... and sometimes you just want to experience it alone. Flying is a great life .....

 

[ElCidAv8tor05]

wow A4's, thanks for the insight. I've always like working closely with other people, really builds a great camraderie. I'm sure that sharing some scary-ass or hilarious moments with your crewmate(s) is a definite bonding experience. Has anyone reading this, or anyone you know of, ever had to fly with someone that was absolutely incompetent and couldn't be trusted to butter a piece of bread much less fly/fight the aircraft? If so what have you done to complete the mission sucessfully and "help" that person "realize" that they were all f***ed up? A royal a$$-chewing I would assume?

-"easy"

 

[ben4prez]

I was reading the July issue of Proceedings and saw the following interesting statistic:

"Every tactical aviation mishap [for the USMC at least] in fiscal year 2004 occurred in single-seat aircraft squadrons...the lopsided statistics illustrate the benefits of a two-seat community in which more time can be spent studying the mission, not to mention splitting the same number of collateral billets among twice as many officers."

How to Stop Crashing Marine Aircraft, Major Richard Hendrick, July 2005 Proceedings, 25

Not that I have ANY experience with this whatsoever, but it was quite enlightening

 

[skidkid]

wow A4's, thanks for the insight. I've always like working closely with other people, really builds a great camraderie. I'm sure that sharing some scary-ass or hilarious moments with your crewmate(s) is a definite bonding experience. Has anyone reading this, or anyone you know of, ever had to fly with someone that was absolutely incompetent and couldn't be trusted to butter a piece of bread much less fly/fight the aircraft? If so what have you done to complete the mission sucessfully and "help" that person "realize" that they were all f***ed up? A royal a$$-chewing I would assume?

-"easy"

Umm flight school takes care of most of that, are there substandard performers in the fleet-yes does that make others workloads go up-yes

 

[Brett327]

I was reading the July issue of Proceedings and saw the following interesting statistic:

"Every tactical aviation mishap [for the USMC at least] in fiscal year 2004 occurred in single-seat aircraft squadrons...the lopsided statistics illustrate the benefits of a two-seat community in which more time can be spent studying the mission, not to mention splitting the same number of collateral billets among twice as many officers."

How to Stop Crashing Marine Aircraft, Major Richard Hendrick, July 2005 Proceedings, 25

Not that I have ANY experience with this whatsoever, but it was quite enlightening

There are so many other factors. When looking at statistics, don't confuse correlation with causation.

Brett

 

[phrogpilot73]

There are so many other factors. When looking at statistics, don't confuse correlation with causation.

Brett

Causation = F/A-18s? Just kidding, but they seemed to be dropping out of the sky last year. Seems better this year...