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Huffers and Helos (aka How do you crank your ride?)

Gatordev

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
helolumpy said:
You don't need the DECU to start the motor, it's all HMU until the engines get up to speed, therefore 400Hz is not required. (Side note the 400Hz is backup power to the DECU in the event that the alternator fails)

The igniters are powered off a winding from the alternator, so once you get the compressor to roll over, the alternator will generate enough power to fire the igniters.

It was one of those discussion items that you heard of back in the RAG in the mid-90's (HS side, I can't speak for the LAMPS folks) on how you could start up if you lost the APU couldn't get external power.

You need to start #1 first since that start valve is DC powered. #2 start valve requires AC power so you'll have to start #1 and then engage the head to turn on the main gens, then start #2 either off the huffer or crossbleed.

Since you don't have AC power when you start #1 and bring the head up to speed, you will not have any VIDS or fire lights. The HS/HSC Wing has it as a prohibited procedure in the Wing SOP since they didn't want folks starting motors without fire detection lights or VIDS.
Click to expand...

I vaguely seem to remember something about starting #1 first w/ no AC power, but w/ AFC-169 (iDECUs), I thought the alternator was 400hz power. Like I said, I may just be remembering it wrong (because in the end, it's just mental masturbation). I'd check, but my Super-Duper Hawk is ALL THE WAY in the living room.
 
P

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
Funny story about starters... In the Phrog, our starter is hydraulic. In the skids, they're electric. I blew a starter up in Teterboro and one of our Airframes CDIs goes to work on it. I call up the MO back in Norfolk and let him know, and tell him that I'm going to have to FOD-free it, since we didn't bring QA with us. He briefs the maintenance chief (a former skid kid). Her response "Why is airframes working on the starter?!?" "Uh, because our engines are started hydraulically?" "Oh." We bust her chops about it to this day (mainly asking when the airframes change is going to come out for an electric starter).
 
M

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
I always thought it was weird that the 60B did not have a Huffer Hose attachment point..

Now that I fly the E-2, we are the next to last USN Aircraft that is Huffer Only.. The EA-6B is going away.. But another Huffalump only plane is rolling out to the fleet..

Yep.. They were too cheap to put an APU in the E-2D. Huffer Starts and tractor drivers killing the Huff when we call for air will still be happening 50 years from now.
 
HeloBubba

HeloBubba

SH-2F AW
Contributor
Can't contribute to this one. All two of the helos I spent time in were DC start only. The SH-2F was always an externally-powered DC start. Battery start was for emergencies only. The UH-1H/V was always a battery (we don't need no steenkin' external power) start.
 
HeloBubba

HeloBubba

SH-2F AW
Contributor
Lawman said:
Not enough voltage to get it to crank without risking a hot start?
Click to expand...

HeloBubba said:
That is a really good question. Time has erased it from my memory. I will consult the Big Blue Sleeping Pill and see if the answer lies therein.
Click to expand...

NATOPS states (paraphrasing) as part of the STARTING ENGINE checklist that external DC power is connected and that the battery is AS DESIRED with a note and a caution. The note is that the battery may be switched on just before start to provide a back-up source of DC power if the external power is suspected of being insufficient. The caution states that the amount time the battery is on with external power connected should be kept to a minimum due to possible overcharging or thermal run-away.

No explanations, of course, as to why external DC power is required for normal operations.

There is a battery starting procedure. It did not contain any cautions, but noted that lightoff may take longer and if you have to start both engines with battery, engage rotors after no. 1.

Now I am sleepy...
 
J

JIMC5499

ex-Mech
Now I know why I loved the accessory drive system on the SH-3. Full electrical and hydraulics with just #1 turning. Thermal runaways on the battery were no fun. I could feel the case creaking on one that I pulled out. They got pissed when I threw it over the side of the ship. The case let go just before it hit the water. They would have probably been more pissed if it had burst on the flight deck.
 
Jim123

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
We got rid of Ni-Cad aircraft batteries in the H-57 about five years ago, and then only about a year or two ago now changed the start procedure to normally use either GPU + battery or just battery. No thermal runaway with lead-acid (not much different than a good boat, ATV, or car battery). Even mention of the "hot battery area" disappeared from the training wing SOP one or two editions ago too. The temperature sensor underneath the battery is still in the helicopters but actual illuminations of the associated warning and caution lights are fading from living memory.

Kids these days, eh? Don't know how good they got it... :)
 
RobLyman

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
helolumpy said:
You don't need the DECU to start the motor, it's all HMU until the engines get up to speed, therefore 400Hz is not required. (Side note the 400Hz is backup power to the DECU in the event that the alternator fails)

The igniters are powered off a winding from the alternator, so once you get the compressor to roll over, the alternator will generate enough power to fire the igniters.

It was one of those discussion items that you heard of back in the RAG in the mid-90's (HS side, I can't speak for the LAMPS folks) on how you could start up if you lost the APU couldn't get external power.

You need to start #1 first since that start valve is DC powered. #2 start valve requires AC power so you'll have to start #1 and then engage the head to turn on the main gens, then start #2 either off the huffer or crossbleed.

Since you don't have AC power when you start #1 and bring the head up to speed, you will not have any VIDS or fire lights. The HS/HSC Wing has it as a prohibited procedure in the Wing SOP since they didn't want folks starting motors without fire detection lights or VIDS.
Click to expand...
All true, although the #2 is also DC powered. However, #2 is powered by the #2 DC Primary, whose power is supplied off of the converters, which require B phase AC power (ie a generator running).

In the M model, we get to see engine instruments during a battery/huffer start through the #3 MFD with EICAS selected. The two data concentrator units (DCUs) are powered by the #2 DC essential and battery utility buses. (2 batteries in the M model). Still, the #1 must be started first. That reminds me, I need to check for the cross start kits in the push package.
 
P

Pags

N/A
pilot
Here's the trick: It's all in the buddy start procedure, so if you forget all the NATOPS minutia, the checklist ensures that you can still start the bird.

On a related note, good luck finding the buddy start hose.
 
RobLyman

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
Pags said:
Here's the trick: It's all in the buddy start procedure, so if you forget all the NATOPS minutia, the checklist ensures that you can still start the bird.

On a related note, good luck finding the buddy start hose.
Click to expand...

Fortunately or infortunately, depending on how you look at it, our buddy start checklist is only in the MTF manual.
 
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