HCS-5 Re-established

[MasterBates]

E-2s treat form as a holyfuckinggodwearegonnadie event.

When I was in 60Bs it was talked about, but not more than 2-3 minutes.

@ Gator.. Now that I was thinking I think it was night VERTREP that was banned per NATOPS . I think the Night Form was a SOP ban. Can't recall if it was wing or squadron.

 

[RobLyman]

We were NATOPS restricted from Night Form (no form lights) so night form for us was a no go.

Maybe I'm just odd, but I've jumped into "foreign to me" airframes and done fairly well coming up to speed quickly, like night forms, TACFORM, etc.

But then again, I'm awesome.

I guess that was my thought. It takes way more intestinal fortitude to do the small deck thing at night unaided than it does to do any of the Army stuff I have had to do..except low illumination, low contrast, dust landings. (That will scare the shit out of you!) It isn't rocket science and anyone HSL/HSM guy should be able to transition to the 84/85 mission set. Maybe a little more training, but a "bunch?" Probably not.

 

[Gatordev]

Serious question...

After two MEUs and watching chopper TACFORM briefs a few times for personal amusement, why is such an administrative thing (at least to TACAIR) treated as a major event in rotor-land? We don't even brief TACFORM outside of "be in _____ (formation)." How to make the turns and what the positions are is learned in the jet VTs and tweaked in the RAG. I don't mean it as a knock, but I'm genuinely curious why formation flying briefs are treated like a big deal. Granted, this is a Navy chopper thread and my experiences have been with Marine choppers, but it seems to be present on the blue side as well based on your remarks.

/the snark comes free with the serious question.
//chopper

Generally, I think it's a community thing. HSL, historically, didn't fly Form "a lot" because you can really only operate single-ship from a small boy. Plus, HSL was always behind the rest of rotary and pointy-nose land on the joint tactics because HSL lived in its own world, away from the airwing. Around 2000-ish, they started to integrate joint stuff into the pubs and some squadrons started actually practicing it (there were still a couple of squadrons doing combined ops training regularly, but it wasn't in accordance with the standard CAS/9-line stuff). HSL would still fly form back home, just not TACFORM, until it was pushed through the west coast and then to a small extent, East Coast, who eventually started adopting it as well.

My big complaint was that a lot of people in HSL thought (and I think still do) that TACFORM meant running through the dance card vice efficiently moving your section around. So when people would say, "Let's go do some TACFORM," they meant running through the maneuvers and not just going out and maneuvering while doing something else.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Serious question...

After two MEUs and watching chopper TACFORM briefs a few times for personal amusement, why is such an administrative thing (at least to TACAIR) treated as a major event in rotor-land? We don't even brief TACFORM outside of "be in _____ (formation)." How to make the turns and what the positions are is learned in the jet VTs and tweaked in the RAG. I don't mean it as a knock, but I'm genuinely curious why formation flying briefs are treated like a big deal. Granted, this is a Navy chopper thread and my experiences have been with Marine choppers, but it seems to be present on the blue side as well based on your remarks.

/the snark comes free with the serious question.
//chopper

Gator hit it best, I think it's an individual community thing. A few flights of the SWTP syllabus is pure TACFORM, which the guy getting the card will probably brief the maneuvers ad nauseum. Comparing advanced and the Rag's, we do very little form, mainly just an intro. The majority of form learning is done once you're out of the rag and into your squadron, which I think is vastly different than you jet guys.

In HS land (the few of us squadrons that are left), as for real world stuff/airwing excercises/etc stuff that I've been a part of or watched, we just talk about form emergencies in the landing/low level/gun pattern environment and everything else is understood.

 

[phrogpilot73]

After two MEUs and watching chopper TACFORM briefs a few times for personal amusement, why is such an administrative thing (at least to TACAIR) treated as a major event in rotor-land? We don't even brief TACFORM outside of "be in _____ (formation)." How to make the turns and what the positions are is learned in the jet VTs and tweaked in the RAG. I don't mean it as a knock, but I'm genuinely curious why formation flying briefs are treated like a big deal. Granted, this is a Navy chopper thread and my experiences have been with Marine choppers, but it seems to be present on the blue side as well based on your remarks.

Are you talking about a TACFORM X/Repunch, to include the ad-naseum briefing on TAC right/left, dig/pinch/resume, cross/cover, center turn, etc? Or are you talking about the ass-bleeding detail on big mission packages?

If you're talking about TACFORM X/Repunch - the brief is very detailed because we don't do it very often outside of the actual X. Most days we just rely on cruise turn principles, etc. If you watch a section brief that's not doing the X, we'll just brief Parade, Combat Cruise or Combat Spread. We might get into a little more detail on the landing only because the section lead has usually done the detailed LZ study and knows where the obstacles are, etc, and will brief landing positions to set the flight up for success.

If you're talking about big mission packages, we brief that in excruciating detail because of differences in aircraft performance and avionics. Shitters can fly faster than Phrogs, Phrogs can slow down faster than Shitters, Shitters have FLIR, Phrogs have Mk1 Mod0 eyeballs. Skids could be in BPs, overhead the zone, etc... Bad things have happened in the past (link, link) and when those bad things happen, 10 guys or more could be dead - so we'd rather brief it in detail.

The other reason in both cases why they are treated like a big deal (mainly in the objective area) is that you guys land on a runway, or a ship - and you kiss off in the break. We land as a section/division/flight simultaneously in shitty LZs, so we brief what everyone is going to do in case things start going wrong.

 

[Pags]

Gator hit it best, I think it's an individual community thing. A few flights of the SWTP syllabus is pure TACFORM, which the guy getting the card will probably brief the maneuvers ad nauseum. Comparing advanced and the Rag's, we do very little form, mainly just an intro. The majority of form learning is done once you're out of the rag and into your squadron, which I think is vastly different than you jet guys.

In HS land (the few of us squadrons that are left), as for real world stuff/airwing excercises/etc stuff that I've been a part of or watched, we just talk about form emergencies in the landing/low level/gun pattern environment and everything else is understood.

Concur for HSC(exp). Guys would only brief The TACFORM Brief twice, once for days and once for nights. In all other SWTP flights it was understood that TACFORM would be used. If you're seeing the verbatim recitation of the TTPs, then it might an initial flight or maybe a prof flight if the Marines do something like that.

 

[Gatordev]

Help me out (Google didn't help with the first few hits)... SWTP? SWTIs Will Take a Penis? Seahawk Weapons Tactics Program? Or is it something else?

 

[Pags]

Help me out (Google didn't help with the first few hits)... SWTP? SWTIs Will Take a Penis? Seahawk Weapons Tactics Program? Or is it something else?

SWTP=Seahawk Weapons and Tactics Program. One curriculum to rule them all!

 

[bert]

/threadjack

On my disacossiated tour at night a flight of four Phrogs come in for the break on a big deck amphib:

Lead: Cutter 06 and flight, numbers for the break

Tower: left break approved; establish your interval, report abeam.

(dash 1 breaks, and dash 2 stays in parade on him)

Tower: (to dash2) Cutter xx do you have a plan I don't know about?

Cutter xx: Awww f#}k me.

Tower: No worries, cross the stern at a mile; why don't you take another swing at it?

Dash 2's HAC in the wardroom later that night: "My 2P's not stupid, he just never briefed that."

/thread jack

Not saying that justifies the long-ass brief; just providing a data point.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Dash 2's HAC in the wardroom later that night: "My 2P's not stupid, he just never briefed that."

Sorry, but both the HAC and the 2P are stupid. Right echelon to the break is SOP at the boat.

I MIGHT give them a break if it was the first week of PMINT, but if it was later on in the workups or even deployment, they're both idiots.

 

[bert]

Sorry, but both the HAC and the 2P are stupid. Right echelon to the break is SOP at the boat.

I MIGHT give them a break if it was the first week of PMINT, but if it was later on in the workups or even deployment, they're both idiots.

They were in right echelon. Honestly I think -2 followed without thinking and it was just too late to fix it (he ended up on lead's 6 about 2 rotor diameters behind). There's no break to give them, of course they screwed up. But it was funny to watch and listen to.

 

[1rotorhead]

Detailer roadshow came through Jax yesterday. Straight from the horse's mouth, HSL/HSM bubbas will no longer be eligible to apply for a spot at 84 or 85, apparently due to numbers of HSC guys available to fill billets and the HSL/HSM bubbas don't have the "skill set" inherent without a bunch of extra training needed.

Can't speak for the detailer, but the "skill set" thing is off mark. The HSL bubbas did just as well as anyone else. In fact, they were better in the left seat than HSC bubbas, by far. I'm willing to bet it's more about the HSL/HSM community than HSC-84 and training. 84 wants pilots from different communities. It's good for the squadron.

 

[RHPF]

Ok yet another, not knocking it, genuinely confused question... Why would helo's come in for the 'break'?

 

[Pags]

The same reason jets do: expeditious entry of multiple aircraft in to the pattern and eventual landing.

 

[PhrogLoop]

Ok yet another, not knocking it, genuinely confused question... Why would helo's come in for the 'break'?

...because when there are multiple aircraft all at 300' all within 3 miles of the boat, and 4 of them are haulin' ass from the beach with min fuel (as the Marine Phrogs always seemed to be ) it's nice to know that they'll deconflict.