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Hawkeyes!

kmac

Coffee Drinker
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I hope Bunk chimes in on this one... Night currency to me seems like it would be an operations nightmare for a Cod det. With 6 pilots and 2 birds I think it would be near impossible to have a schedule with both day and night hits, AND have two up birds. Maintenance needs time to fix the birds because just about every day we fly, something breaks. Shoot, things break on us if the birds do nothing for three days. That's the nature of the beast. I'm willing to bet that we would be able to move less things to the boat if we did night ops (as well as day ops).

Now, please Bunk, give everyone the real reasons we don't do it.
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
ChuckMK23 said:
What's up with the C-2 not doing night traps? DOes the CV mysteriously no longer need logistics support at night?

Someone explain that please...

There are several reasons, the main one being that 2 COD's and 6 pilots are limited, depending on the range, on how many hits they can do a day. As a det, we are simply limited on what we can accomplish daily and that was a constant battle I fought as OIC on my last cruise. We too have crew rest, something some simply don't care about or at least think about. The planes are old as well and it takes on average about 20 maint hours per flight hour to keep them flying. Besides logistics, one of our primary missions is pax/dv runs to the boat. Well, we cannot land at night on the boat with pax or DV's. In 99, we would deliver pax/cargo during the day and often not have anything left for the night run. I would say 80% of our night traps were airborne respots. What I'm trying to say is the night stuff just wasn't very effecient, especially when we compared what we did with the day only bubba's at VRC-40. They often carried more cargo, pax and with a better sortie completion rate. Being that there are only 35 (give or take) flyable C-2A's in the world, with no replacement in sight, the day/night ops were taking a toll on the maintenance efforts. I think our squadron failed 3 major MCI's in a row. The constant FCLP's also took a toll, reducing the number of landings on an aging aircraft.

In the beginning, the night program was sold on the tactical applications and money saving ability of night flying COD's. Meaning COD's could launch of the boat at night, carrying a team of SEAL's, insert them and land before day break. Great in theory but it was never used. There is absolutely no defensive capabilities built inot the COD. That will change with the C-2B but inserting SEALs in the real world is a good way to lose an airplane in anything but a low threat environment. I did para-drops on cruise, in Kuwait as a matter of fact, but for practice only.

The money saving came in the form of staying on the boat. A standard west coast COD det will spend anywhere from $500K to 800K in 6 months. In 4.5 months, my det spent $480K. That's not including gas. In 99, our budget was $50K, a huge difference but apparently, money is no longer an issue. This was due to the fact we deployed with the airwing, stayed onboard every night, a real carrier aviator. I loved that deployment, felt like part of the team. The night flying makes a pilot a better ball flyer, period. It's difficult at best. I went on to become one of the two primary night CQ instructors at the FRS, before it finally went away as well.

Anyway, from what I understand, those are the main reasons night flying at the boat went away. With SLEP underway, the landing might be a moot point but night flying I don't think will come back or be an issue until the C-2B. If it can deploy SEAL's in a threat envrionment and tank, it just might be used for night stuff. Just a guess on my part though.
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
Nice reply Bunk - that was an awesome explanation - talk about multiple operational constraints!

I remember flying 46's we couldn't do pax at night either - I remember a number of senior air force types looking at me like I was from Mars when I explained I couldn't get them from the CV to the LPD at night - it was hard as an OIC saying that to a one star .... uggh.

The the COD have any of the following?

ACLS
ILS
GPS

?
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
ChuckMK23 said:
Nice reply Bunk - that was an awesome explanation - talk about multiple operational constraints!

I remember flying 46's we couldn't do pax at night either - I remember a number of senior air force types looking at me like I was from Mars when I explained I couldn't get them from the CV to the LPD at night - it was hard as an OIC saying that to a one star .... uggh.

The the COD have any of the following?

ACLS
ILS
GPS

?

We have ACLS, AACS, ILS, GPS, VOR, TACAN, two radios capable of VHF, UHF and now SATCOM as well.
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
NavyWife2001 said:
One quick question.....when do you find out what you get between the E2 and C2? Before or after RAG?

When you class up and begin the RAG.
 

kmac

Coffee Drinker
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
It depends on the quality of scotch you buy the rag instructors. That or just get really lucky and have a class with nothing but C-2s.
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
kmac said:
It depends on the quality of scotch you buy the rag instructors. That or just get really lucky and have a class with nothing but C-2s.

........or in your case kmac, how well you su......never mind :watching_
 

codtanker

United Airlines
pilot
To add to the Bunkster. The deal in the late 90s was the hairbrain idea of a couple of individuals. The Rawhides never went in on the night traps like the West Coast.

Even within this community the deployments differ quite a bit. The Med is just too close to stay on the boat the whole cruise, and with the mentality of the ship wanting as much deck space as possible the CODs will stay off as much as possible.

As to the start of this thread and which is the hardest to bring aboard the ship. Does it really matter in the long run? No, no matter what you fly you will train to be the best at that aircraft and bringing it aboard safely. Some will argue that the wingspan makes the COD harder to bring aboard, not true except that we have less room to make an error. Instaneous power and the ability to get overpowered quickly is what I found more often then not to be the problem. We trained hour after hour on flying the rudders and preached the centerline that it became instinctive.

My memory may be fading on what it was really like to bring aboard but I found it just fun and challenging. What I will say though and I remember this quite well is the deployment where the Admiral decided he wanted the COD to come aboard using a straight-inn for the VIPs. Now, talk about near mid-airs and just overall confusion in the pattern. Take all that you have done during workups and change it so the COD is coming in on a 6-8 mile straight-inn while the Tomcats are trying to break the deck. A Tomcat belly up to you at 3/4 mile is not a pretty sight. The LSO's in their infinate wisdom called "keep it coming" but failed to mention aircraft he was talking to. As we both continued we decided it was to close for comfort and took our own wave off (virtually unheard of at the boat) at just about the same time the LSOs also decided to wave us both off.

My point is that no matter what aircraft is really the hardest to bring aboard we train and train and train to do it correctly each time. Not only aviators in general, but especially Tailhookers have the mentality that we are the best of the best. You have to be confident in whatever aircraft you have to fly in order to this job, day, night, good and assbag weather.

One last thought about the COD community. When you come back from a deployment there is no down time. After you POM leave your back in the mix of flying because there is always be a Carrier out somewhere along the coast needing cargo or pax. Yea, I finished my Navy career with only 150 left seat traps (the only ones that count) but I got to see the world from the shoreline and not passed out in an Admin during a 5 day port call.
 

ip568

Registered User
None
Can't answer the part about flying in circles as I'm usually occupied while they're up front reading porn, but remember to keep the turns as flat as possible or expeditiously executed "Bat-turns" - you'll make friends w/ the NFO's if you do.
<P>
NFOs have the means to get even.

In the P-3B TACNAVMOD there were separate NAV and TACNAV modes, the latter being for tactical stuff like running a MAD pattern on a sub. The nav computer could be tied to the autopilot so that when the TACCO entered a mark the airplane immediately turned toward that mark for a mark on top. In NAV the maximum bank turn was 30 degrees; in TAC it was 45 degrees.

Sometimes during a 10-12 hour transit from NAS THERE to NAS HERE the pilots would get too salty and start giving the crew grief over the ICS. We'd bide our time back in the tube... then, when the aviators were relaxed on auto pilot with their feet up on the console and chattering away about how hard it was to live on $ 185,000 a year at Delta Airlines, we'd strike. I'd slew the tactical cursor to one wing tip, go from NAV to TAC, and hit GO TO. The big P-3 would snap into a 45 degree bank and try to fly over its wing tip. Boy, was that fun to watch! Both sets of feet would hit the deck along with cries of "S**t! What happened?? I've got it!" as their lunches and coffee and charts and pencils went flying and debris filled the cockpit for a moment. This was followed by some really serious cursing not heard since AOCS, followed by good natured laughing.

Remember... DO NOT P*SS-OFF your NFO!
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
ip568 said:
Remember... DO NOT P*SS-OFF your NFO!
Reminds me of a good one - not NFO vs. pilot, but same kind of hijinks. So we're doing an OSW (Southern Watch) flight and we just get on the tanker for some pre-push gas. Well, in the backseat of the Prowler is a particularly disliked (and clueless) hinge. The other three crewmembers coordinate/conspire over secret squirrel ICS. In the old Prowler INS, you could decouple the INS from the nav solution, which means you can manually enter winds and what not. Well, ECMO 1 in front enters a 500 Kt wind in the direction of Iraq. This has the effect of making the ownship "sperm cell" on the aft displays start heading into Iraq at 500 kts. So, this guy starts looking at the display all funny for a few minutes...looks out to see if we're still on the tanker...looks at his display some more with a furled brow. Finally the dude comes on ICS and exclaims, "Hey guys, the tanker is dragging us into the box!" Laughter ensues. :D

Brett
 

kmac

Coffee Drinker
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Ok I laugh at your jokes, but seriously guys, you're starting to sound like a bunch of pocket-protector toting, bandaged-glasses wearing nerds. Harrr heee heheeee harrrr..... check out the NAV display...harrr hee hee haarrr... go to... GO to... GO TO! HEeeeehhhh

And let's face it, nothing much beats a good "Hey aft, we're pulling up on our lead...they think they have a crack in the window...do you see anything?"
 
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