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H-92 for Navy?

STARFlight145

Registered User
Perhaps a ridiculous question, but does the U.S. Navy have any plans for the Sikorsky H-92 Superhawk? I'm aware a number of countries have acquired them to replace aging aircraft in their military fleet, such as the CH-148 Cyclone (Canadian S-92) replacing their old CH-124 Sea Kings. And the H-92 lost out to the HH-47 for the U.S. Air Force CSARX competition.

If I'm not mistaken, the Navy is moving towards all 60s. But I remember when the H-92 was still in production, I've always hoped that the Navy would buy into them.
 

PhrogLoop

Adulting is hard
pilot
The Helo Master Plan (cough) had stated that we were bottlenecking to all 60s, but now under Helo Conops there is probably room to admit that we can't exactly replace the MH-53 with a blackhawk airframe. So IMHO, we'll complete the HSC/HSM transition to 60 S/R and probably drag out the service life of our MH-53s until we decide on a replacement. Not sure that H-92 fits into any of that.
 

darrylcn

Member
I've seen the test Cyclone flying around Halifax a bit, neat helo, I see a little Seahawk in it which is cool.
 

STARFlight145

Registered User
Yep, I don't really see any room for the 92 either. Too bad, I really like it, from what I've seen at least. It's a sharp looking aircraft, imo. Definitely has some H-60 in it.
 

Pariel

New Member
What airframes can replace the CH-53, besides just upgrading to the Kilo? I've heard the Navy isn't too hot on doing that anytime soon.
 

helolumpy

Apprentice School Principal
pilot
Contributor
What airframes can replace the CH-53, besides just upgrading to the Kilo? I've heard the Navy isn't too hot on doing that anytime soon.

During the 2009 NHA the future of the 53 was discussed during the flag panel. LSS: The Navy has until 2012 to make a decision on what to do with the 53 for the AMCM mission. If the 60S systems don't pan out, then the Navy will buy new 53's. (Which version is a minor detail at this point in time)
If the 60S systems do work, then the 53 AMCM mission will be replaced by a Sierra and the Navy will lose it's organic heavy lift capability.

The Navy is still POM'ing to buy the Osprey, so while the V-22 can not lift as much internally or externally as the 53E, it may fill that void for VOD to big decks....
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
When I was working up in Pax River on the 53K contract, the PMA wasn't PLANNING on the 53K replacing the MH-53E - but he was definitely making sure that it wouldn't be a big shock to everyone if the Navy decided to go that route...
 

S.O.B.

Registered User
pilot
I haven't heard in a while how the Organic systems are doing; specifically Q-20 and Oasis. Anyone have any insight? 2012 is coming fast and when I was in PAX 5 years ago these things had a long way to go. I'm a 53 guy and I would hate to see them go but I think we could get by without AMCM but I think we would really lose an asset when it comes to heavy lift.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
HSC-26 is supposed to get the systems in early FY11. That's straight from PMA-299 at NHA. As to the actual validity of the statement, who knows.
 

helolumpy

Apprentice School Principal
pilot
Contributor
I haven't heard in a while how the Organic systems are doing; specifically Q-20 and Oasis. Anyone have any insight? 2012 is coming fast and when I was in PAX 5 years ago these things had a long way to go. I'm a 53 guy and I would hate to see them go but I think we could get by without AMCM but I think we would really lose an asset when it comes to heavy lift.


I'd be far more worried about the AMCM capability than the heavy lift capability for Naval Ops. You can always lay on a couple of extra helo flights for log runs, but if you lose the AMCM capability then you can impact military deployment and sustainment for a significant period of time while the MCM and EOD folks clear out the mines.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
Horseshit. The last time we actually did MCM ops, AMCM accounted for 10% of all mines found. MCM and EOD were responsible for finding and clearing the vast majority of mines. (The General's War has specific numbers in its appendix.) Losing AMCM means that... well, that we lose 10% of MCM capability.
 

helolumpy

Apprentice School Principal
pilot
Contributor
Horseshit. The last time we actually did MCM ops, AMCM accounted for 10% of all mines found. MCM and EOD were responsible for finding and clearing the vast majority of mines. (The General's War has specific numbers in its appendix.) Losing AMCM means that... well, that we lose 10% of MCM capability.


So your logic is that since it contributed only 10% to the mission, then it's a capability we can afford to lose. Yet there is nothing in the inventory of any service that can conduct the mission; a mission that is the responsibility of the Navy.

However, I content that the VOD capability is replaceable with current capabilities in the Strike Group. There are 8 MH-60S in the Airwing. These aircraft have a much higher material readiness rate than the 53, therefore it is easy to replace the 1 H-53 hit to the carrier with 2-3 H-60S hits in one day. It will take longer, but the loss of capability can be overcome by dedicating more assets to the mission.

If the mission requires oversized cargo, then the C-2 will have to complete the mission. If the C-2 can't do it for whatever reason and the lift is that high of a priority, then the GCC can direct another service to fly a heavy lift helo (USMC H-53 or USA H-47) to the Carrier to deliver the part(s).

There was an article in International Security by Caitlin Talmadge (http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/isec.2008.33.1.82) where using open source intel she concludes that Iran could close the SoH for over a month with Mines and ASCM. That means nothing gets in or out until those threats are neutralized. I think that 10% will be pretty important when it could mean the difference of 3-5 days of the SoH being closed.

Finally, HM-14 is expeditionary in nature and can be air-transported in short order to anywhere in the world. The 14 Avenger Class MCM ships can only make 14 knots so they'll need a long time to get somewhere.

I'm not saying the VOD mission is not needed, my argument is that shortfalls for USN H-53 logistics can be overcome by using other aircraft. If you lose the AMCM capability of the H-53 (assuming the 60S systems are not on-line) then there is nothing in the inventory to complete that mission.

Mines are a cheap means to conduct sea denial operations. By using WWII technology, a belligerant nation can effectively shut down access to strategic choke points or waterways for a significant period of time. The US Navy has neglected this warfare area in much the same way as ASW by having missions with higher probability of occurrence or operational requirements take precedence for $$$.

We can't afford to lose what little capability we have in the event Iran decides to close the SoH with an estimated 2000+ mines that can be dumped off the back of a fishing boat.
10% of 2000+ = 200 mines; that IMO is a significant threat that needs to be addressed.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Horseshit. The last time we actually did MCM ops, AMCM accounted for 10% of all mines found. MCM and EOD were responsible for finding and clearing the vast majority of mines. (The General's War has specific numbers in its appendix.) Losing AMCM means that... well, that we lose 10% of MCM capability.

Don't forget that a lot of the capability that the US used to have in the MIW arena has gone away with the dwindling surface MCM force (no more Inchon or Ospreys). Leaving a lot more work for O/AMCM.
 

illinijoe05

Nachos
pilot
Horseshit. The last time we actually did MCM ops, AMCM accounted for 10% of all mines found. MCM and EOD were responsible for finding and clearing the vast majority of mines. (The General's War has specific numbers in its appendix.) Losing AMCM means that... well, that we lose 10% of MCM capability.
Dude you seriously have no idea what you are talking about.
 

Will_T

Will_T
I fail to see how losing "only" 10 percent of mine-clearing ability is minor, seeing as mines are an easy and effective way to deny the Navy's access to just about anywhere. Look at the USS Tripoli, USS Princeton, and USS Samuel B. Roberts.
And even though the MCM fleet is dwindling, the LCS (if and when it gets here) will be quickly deployable and effective, and can also keep station with a CSG. This should fix that problem. Not that a ship can fully replace helicopter borne mine-clearing.
I think helolumpy has got some good points, but can we keep the 53's in the air forever?
 
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