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Freedom of speech gone too far..

SkywardET

Contrarian
Free speech also includes speech which you disagree with.

I'm all for freedom and personal liberty, but everything has its limits (except for the Universe and human stupidity). You can't harass your neighbors with a bullhorn from your property 24/7 in the name of free speech. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater. You can't incite violence. This group of imbeciles, Westboro "Baptist Church," does what can reasonably be considered harassment and could easily be considered "fighting words."

Flash is right in that you don't want to set a precedent for a slippery slope towards tyrannical laws like in Canada and Europe, but precedents have already been set for soliciting violence and harassment--they are not protected under the First Amendment.
 

OccamsRazor

Final Select BDCP Intel
There are exceptions to the First Amendment protections for Freedom of Speech, but I tend to think the Court found correctly here. The Westboro Baptist Church, however repugnant its doctrines, was expressing what is fundamentally a dissenting view on public policy. Everybody who's not a member of their crazy cult finds them insidious and bile-inducing, but we can't reject free speech because we don't like what people say, and that's basically what this comes down to.

The obvious precedents here are Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (which creates the Fighting Words doctrine, which says that your offensive speech has to be immediatley directed to the recipient and likely to cause the average person to engage in a violent response) and RAV v. St. Paul, in which Scalia (the lone dissenter in the Phelps case) actually wrote the decision striking down a law under which a teenager was convicted of cross-burning on the grounds that while time, place, and manner restrictions which are content-neutral are fine, the government can't use those kinds of restrictions to favor one side over another. Phelps and his band of whackos were protesting in accordance with restrictions (certain distance from the funerals, under police supervision, etc.) so you can't ban them from saying whatever they want in that context anymore than you could ban someone from protesting at military funerals with signs arguing that we should send more troops or that President Obama is an alien from the planet Zardoz. Phelps wasn't calling for imminent lawless action and he wasn't directly addressing the funeralgoers with words intended to provoke violence.

Once we start banning speech because we find it offensive, rather than because it provokes imminent lawless action (the generalized principle behind the fighting words doctrine), we enter the slippery slope that SkywardET referred to; who's to say that laws could not also be passed banning anti-abortion protesters or criminalizing religious or racial slurs on the grounds that they cause offense similar to that which we see here? In the end, I think, this comes back to the famous aphorism ascribed to Voltaire by Evelyn Beatrice Hall - "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." As a country we see Phelps' pitiful protests of the funerals of fallen servicemen, and I like to hope that that reinforces - rather than reduces - our resolve in defending the principles we hold so dear.
 

CommodoreMid

Whateva! I do what I want!
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The only thing we can hope for is them to die out of natural causes. I saw a documentary where a guy actually went and lived with them at their compound for a little bit. All the girls in the family were talking about how they didn't want to think about marriage because they were so into the family's work. If they don't breed, the "church" will go away eventually.
 

IRfly

Registered User
None
tyrannical laws like in Canada and Europe

Yeah, those poor mofos in Europe and Canada, groaning under the weight of oppressive tyranny. We should just look at how they do things, and strive for the exact opposite. Always.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
Yeah, those poor mofos in Europe and Canada, groaning under the weight of oppressive tyranny. We should just look at how they do things, and strive for the exact opposite. Always.
don't feed the troll.
 

BACONATOR

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Yeah, those poor mofos in Europe and Canada, groaning under the weight of oppressive tyranny. We should just look at how they do things, and strive for the exact opposite. Always.

Hmm..... I don't see what the problem is. Socialism there seems to be working out pretty well! *sarcasm meter glass shatters*
 

SkywardET

Contrarian
Yeah, those poor mofos in Europe and Canada, groaning under the weight of oppressive tyranny. We should just look at how they do things, and strive for the exact opposite. Always.
Tyranny is an extreme description of their censorship practices, but it is not truly inaccurate. Censorship is present to various degrees in all countries. Except in cases where my liberty directly negatively affects your liberty, why is it inappropriate to call censorship a form of tyranny? The definition lends itself towards the arbitrary exercise of power or control--what is more arbitrary than controlling what someone says?

Try to stay within the bounds of the discussion. This has nothing to do with the connotation of the word tyranny, and everything to do with the fundamental liberties of people. The WBC Klan speaking their nonsense essentially conflicts, if only slightly, with the ability to hold a reasonable and decent funeral. It also incites an aggressive response because they are specifically targeting the emotions of those that hear them.

If you're done playing semantics, maybe we can get back to discussing what is important.
 
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