For Sale!

[DocT]

How about next time you do a little research?

hopefully put some humor into this thread

That's a good post. I find it funny, so rep points to you!

(awww damn!....I owe you some Rare)

 

[illinijoe05]

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes532011.htm

 

[eddie]

And your point????

He did do research... is his point.

 

[eddie]

I agree, eddie. His questioning of the sacrifice of airline pilots (in a previous post) is just uninformed and wrong.

I can't touch any of this with a friggin 10-ft pole, I wouldn't have any idea what I'm talking about...

 

[Punk]

You need to learn more about the airlines and the sacrifices all airline employees have made before "ranting". Then do a little more research and you will learn that although the pilots are the fewest in number, they have taken a significant majority of the pay cuts and concessions. Far more than any other work group in the industry.

And they're also the most paid. Just like how the upper class have the biggest tax percentage, well, they also make the most. I've been in the airline business 25 years. Both of my parents work for the airlines and still do. Everything that has happened in the airline industry has directly affected me and my family. Some kids grow up military brats, I was an airline brat. Trust me, I know exactly what airline employees go through, I've seen it for a long time. So don't come crying on my shoulder buddy, cause its not gonna happen.

My family has already suffered through one major airline failure, that was Pan Am. My father was and still is a flight instructor/check airman. He also did it the old fashioned way, purely civilian. He joined Pan Am in 68 (came up here in Everett to take deliver of the first 747 btw), my mother in 69. Thankfully, they both got hired by Delta, so up to Atlanta we had to move. And guess what else happened when Pan Am went under, they both lost their pensions. 23 and 22 years respectively with nothing to show for it. Of course, everyone lost, pilots, mechanics, clerks, it was a very shitty deal all around.

Both of my parents took over a 35% cut in the past 2 years with Delta along with the rest of the airline employeers. But not the pilots, not until recently. My heart weeps. And yes, I know how little you get paid in the beginning. Once again, I'm not uninformed about this. But 6 figures in a Delta cockpit was the norm after a few years. Once again, Delta had the highest paid cockpits in the industry.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the pilots, its the management. The same thing that happened with Pan Am and Eastern, its happening all over again. Meanwhile, they're still lining their pockets with millions while everyone else just scraps along. Its a very very shitty deal.

I'm not saying being an airplane pilot isn't the easiest job in the world, but sure as shit isn't the hardest either. Hearing captain's wives in Kroger bitching about not getting the new Mercedes this year because her husband might have to take a paycut (I'm not kidding, not heresay, I actually heard this when I was home visiting), leaves one with little sympathy. Now I realize this isn't everyone, but you'd be surprised. Hell, some pilots think they are owed these jobs with high salaries because of military service or other hardships they encountered on the way. Once again, you're not a brain surgeon or curing cancer.

You can try to play like I'm uninformed, but its not gonna happen. We've heard all the same arguments from ALPA, the local wives group writing to the paper, about your sacrifices. Face it, everyone is making a sacrifice. I've grown up in it, seen it before. Nothing surprises me in this industry anymore.

 

[wink]

OK, Simma down now!! The debate about how good or bad us airline guys have it is always entertaining. Just for the record though, I don't think we should be gunning for airline CEOs. Now to the original post and ebay's actions. The TSA does not want airline uniforms available to the public. I know you can buy a pretty nice looking one in just about every major city and the internet probably has dozens available. But it is a fact that a current airline pilot's uniform, with current issue wings is supposed to be reported lost or stolen to TSA. I wouldn't be surprised if some pencil necked geek at TSA called ebay with a request to take the add down. You might find it as silly as banning nail clipper (not the case anymore), but is the policy and there is some justification for it.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Both of my parents took over a 35% cut in the past 2 years with Delta along with the rest of the airline employeers. But not the pilots, not until recently.... So don't come crying on my shoulder buddy, cause its not gonna happen.... You can try to play like I'm uninformed, but its not gonna happen. We've heard all the same arguments from ALPA, the local wives group writing to the paper, about your sacrifices. Face it, everyone is making a sacrifice. I've grown up in it, seen it before. Nothing surprises me in this industry anymore.

I took a 100% pay cut from Hawaiian. HAL ALPA could have given the world to the company and I would have been recalled by now. I'm glad they didn't. I want a pay check and quality of life that's worth going back to.

DALPA tried for 2 years to give concessions to the company. Delta wouldn't take them because they weren't big enough. It was $1 billion or nothing. DALPA was offering $750 million. So instead of saving $1.5 billion over the 2 years by accepting the offer, management thumb their noses at the pilots and then told the rest of the employees the pilots refused to give any. In fact, the Judge in the bankruptcy case recently took management to task over this very issue.

Again, the FAs and other Delta employee groups have no one but themselves to blame for allowing their pay and work rules to be left solely to the discretion of management. They could have unionized but have passed up the opportunity many times. The airline business has opened my eyes to this. If Hawaiian employees weren't unionized (all groups, not just the pilots), we would have been brutally raped during the bankruptcy we just went through despite the fact Hawaiian was (and is) one of the most profitable airlines in the U.S. While we were making $225 million in profit during our "false" bankruptcy (which should never have been allowed), management wanted more and more from the employees as "necessary" to emerge. And management wasn't paying pennies on the dollar to our debt. They paid the creditors 100% and paid themselves raises while the employees paid the company. Now Aloha pilots are in a similar situation. Their retirement plan is 95% funded yet management claims it has to be terminated for the airline to emerge from bankruptcy. Yet management has convinced the other Aloha employees its all the pilots fault that there airline is having money problems. United is pulling the same crap. Everyone lost their pensions, but except for the pilots most employees are getting almost 100% coverage from the PBGC. The pilots by far took the biggest pay cuts. United creditors are getting pennies on the dollar. Yet United management has just asked the Judge for $325 million in stock and bonuses when they come up of bankruptcy in February.

I'm not crying on anyones shoulders. I'm supporting the Delta pilots 100% in saying enough is enough. Even if everyone took the same percentage pay cuts, the pilots will still take a bigger monetary hit. Further it's time to stop asking the employees - especially the pilots as that is where the biggest hits are taken - to pay for the public to fly. Raise ticket prices to match fuel costs and tax increases.

If people want pilot salaries, work rules and benefits - than let them invest the time, money and sweat to become a pilot. They want to bitch about pilot salaries - screw them. At Hawaiian, the pilots drew a line and took a strike vote. If the company had succeeded in getting what they wanted from the judge, we would have shut the company down. DALPA is threatening the same thing and I hope like hell for the benefit of the civilian pilot profession everywhere, they follow through if the company succeeds in getting the Judge to throw their contract out.

 

[Punk]

Well, there will always be people willing to take the seat beyond the yoke. The day of the big paychecks are probably gone forever.

Everyone's getting screwed while management is smiling with their multimillion dollar bonuses. It's happened before, its happening again. That's the sad part of it.

You can go ahead and blame Delta and their employees for not having a union, I'm sure they'll love to hear about that.

I'm sick of hearing, and I know the other 95% of the airline is sick of it too, of the sacrifice the pilots are making. Everyone else is already there, they earned less in the beginning, they earn even less now.

The pilots can moan all they want about their lifestyle while the ship around them sinks. They're not the one who drove the stake into the keel, but bitching how high the water is rising while everyone else is already drowning is gonna fall on deaf ears.

 

[HAL Pilot]

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes532011.htm

I don't know where they got their figures, but if you research actual airline pilot wages you will find out that they are just plain wrong. The government also recently reported that the average wage range for flight instructors was $75K to $100K per year. Most flight instructors are luck to make $15K to $20K per year. The government got their figure by bunching all flight instructors together. Since flight instructors at major airlines are usually senior captains, the government's figure was significantly skewed and did not reflect reality.

Go to http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/. They have the current pay rates by aircraft for almost every airline with their monthly guarantee. You will find some planes/airlines that do pay top dollar. But at least 50% of the pilots in this industry are flying for regional airlines and very few of their top captains even break $100k a year. Further, at least 50% of the pilots at the majors are flying the smaller jets like the 737s which have the lowest pay rates for their airline.

Delta's lawyers recently told the Judge the average Delta pilot made $150K a year. The Judge asked them to prove it and they started talking in circles. DALPA's lawyers pulled out pilot pay records and showed the actual average figure was below $100K/year.

Delta FOs start at about $36k/year. The max pay a Delta FO on the 737/MD80 can make is $83K/year. The max pay a Delta FO on the 777 (best paid aircraft) can make is $115K/year. These max pays are for a minimum of 12 years at the company.

Lowest pay a Delta Captain can make is $112K/year on the 737/MD80. The max a 737/MD80 Captain can make is $122K/year. The max a Delta 777 Captain can make is $169K/year.

The figures I gave are based on flying guarantee and no overtime.

There are far more 737 and MD80 aircraft than 747 and 777 aircraft.

He did do research... is his point.

One website is not very thorough research.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Well, there will always be people willing to take the seat beyond the yoke. The day of the big paychecks are probably gone forever.

And with that attitude, we will continue to see pay and benefits fall as management bails out their ineptitude on the pilots back. Why do you think regional pay is so low. Because of this attitude.

Everyone's getting screwed while management is smiling with their multimillion dollar bonuses. It's happened before, its happening again. That's the sad part of it.

This is true and it's the pilot groups at airlines like Delta, Aloha and Hawaiian that are finally saying enough. Yet somehow it's being twisted into being the pilots' fault. It sounds like you're convinced it's the pilots' fault.

You can go ahead and blame Delta and their employees for not having a union, I'm sure they'll love to hear about that.

Maybe if they had listened before, they would have come out of their current plight better. I'm not blaming them for the airline's problems, I'm blaming them for not putting the mechanisms in place to prevent management from screwing them. Again, it's not the pilots' fault.

I'm sick of hearing, and I know the other 95% of the airline is sick of it too, of the sacrifice the pilots are making. Everyone else is already there, they earned less in the beginning, they earn even less now.

They choose their profession. If they wanted pilot wages, they should have become a pilot. Why should pilots bear a larger burden to support those who chose not to be pilots? Cry some more tears for them, I'm not and neither are the other airline pilots I know.

The pilots can moan all they want about their lifestyle while the ship around them sinks. They're not the one who drove the stake into the keel, but bitching how high the water is rising while everyone else is already drowning is gonna fall on deaf ears.

Pilots have given far more than any other employee group despite being the smallest employee group. Like every where else in society, those with less blame those with more. The other employee groups don't want to just be pulled out of the water, they want the pilots to build them a new boat. They can build their own frigging boat.

I'm glad you are a military pilot and not flying for my airline. I can see that you would give it all away at the drop of a hat.

Just because your parents work for an airline doesn't mean you know "how it is" to be an airline pilot. My Dad was a career Army officer but until I joined the Army Reserve out of high school, I did not know what being a Soldier really was. My daughter has had 2 parents who were Navy Officer and one who is a pilot yet she doesn't know "how it is" to be in the Navy or fly an airplane.

 

[Punk]

I'm glad you are a military pilot and not flying for my airline. I can see that you would give it all away at the drop of a hat.

Wow, you got me pegged.

Let me summarize your argument: I'm owed that money so I'll be damned if I gotta give it up.

All the extra sacrifices airline pilots make, wow. You guys do believe your own press.

Let me say this again, everyone is having to make a sacrifice, you guys are not different.

 

[VarmintShooter]

[THREADJACK]
Out of curiousity, what on earth does a flight attendant do to justify earning more than $91,050 per year? (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos171.htm)

Also, from the same website (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos107.htm), median annual earnings of flight attendants were $43,140 in 2002.

Just seems awfully high, but I guess I just don't know what they do beyond giving the exits brief and serving cofee and tea. Not trying to be smart, but nearly $100k? What do they do?

[/THREADJACK]

 

[East]

That's what they do..........

They live in different time zones.
They have the full responsability for the passengers throughout the cabin.
They are the smoke and drink Police in the back.
They enforce air safety regulations.
They are just armed with a smile.
They have to deal with passengers.
They accompany little children who travel without parents.
They screen passengers before entering the aircraft (gatewatch).
They are the ambassadors for the airline.
They are the reason if passengers book again on that particular airline.
They are the airline (for passengers that is).
They bring you your food and drinks.
They are trained to egress the plane when needed (yep, also the one in that wheelchair and the one weighing 300 lbs)
They clean the toilets when you suffer turbulence with Johnson out.
They wipe off vomit from your vicinity when Baboochka next to you decides to let it out.
They comfort little kids and elderly people on board, who normally don't made the choice to fly at all.

Talking about 350 pax of which the majority don't have a clue where the nearest emer exit is nor is willing to pay attention at all in the safety brief.

I knew one (in person) who gave her life in a DC-10 crash in Faro, Portugal (early '90s) "so that others may live"... She was great and brave and just only 24 yrs of age.

I know her colleage who dragged a big female passenger for over a mile from the wreckage on her back on her two broken ankles. The soles of her feet were upside down facing up.

It were the flightattendants who were still comforting the dying pax on that Helios B737 airplane when the flightcrew lacked proper ox procedures and was in a holding pattern for over 4 hours and the flightdeck crew passed away due hypoxia long before the pax did. Greek fighters jets saw the cabin crew removing bodies from the cockpit as the engines flamed out...the horror.

That's what they do..........

 

[Punk]

While I applaud every group that works to keep the airlines alive (Delta in particular) Hal is right on the money. Everyone thinks it's the pilots that are sinking the ship. Like he said, it's a lot more complitcated than that.

But I don't think that pilots are sinking the airline. I don't think that at all. Almost everyone in the know doesn't think that. Everyone is pointing the finger at the management. But that's not the point of this argument.

Let me make this bold THE MANAGEMENT IS TO BLAME, NOT THE PILOTS. I have said that a few times already.

Like Mefesto has said, pilot salaries were pretty damn high in the 90's. Now its time to wake up to reality. I would love an industry where I can say how much I should get paid, but that's not gonna happen.

Everyone in the airline is getting screwed. And its because of the management. I'm just tired of hearing how much a huge sacrifice the pilots are making for the good of the company when everyone else is making the same sacrifice.


Varmintshooter: those numbers are way off, I don't know of any flight attendant making anywhere near that dough

 

[VarmintShooter]

Varmintshooter: those numbers are way off, I don't know of any flight attendant making anywhere near that dough

I figured they might be off ... it's from the same Bureau of Labor website that IllinJoe posted (which claims outrageous pilot salaries as well). Just thought that if one in ten FAs really made that kind of money with a High School education then I'd start steering people in that direction.