Flight Training

[cfam]

The answer is that sometimes (rarely) we do, and when we don't it's mostly because of competitiveness, career milestones, and the way we assign billets. If you're a EUCOM FAO and you need your next billet to be SDO/DATT, welp, there are only a handful of SDO/DATT billets in EUCOM for Navy (they're assigned by service). So you could end up doing your SDO/DATT tour in Southcom. I'm not sure how it is right now, but in the past we had the tendency to pick up senior-ish O-3s with weak records at lateral transfer boards (aviators, because the ones with strong records tended to stay flying), so the main priority was not fit/fill or maximizing utilization, but trying to get them healthy for the next board.

Army: Selected for FAO, 4-year training pipeline including Masters degree (usually at high-level civilian institution like SAIS, Harvard, Tufts, etc), core regional language study, and usually 18-ish months in-region training (IRT) which, for EUCOM guys, can include a few months at the Marshall Center and then spending the rest in 3-6 month blocks at different embassies in the region. Maybe a few months at COCOM too. End result is a fully-qualified FAO ready for just about any billet.

Navy: Try to select FAOs who already have qualified with language, already have masters (NWC counts), and already have been assigned somewhere overseas so that they don't require time and $$ to train to full qualification. If no masters, then usually NPS is the first stop to get that check in the box. There are lots of Embassy (ODC, some attache) O-4 billets for AFRICOM, CENTCOM, SOUTHCOM. EUCOM, not so much. PACOM has some. So EUCOM and PACOM, good chance you'll head to a staff unless you know somebody. EUCOM will probably be CNE so that you can also check that "overseas" box.

I had been a "fully qualified FAO" for about 4 years when I arrived to my embassy assignment at the same time as an Army O-4 FAO. He was MILES ahead of me. Why? At least partly because he had worked for 6-9 months in that same embassy as an IRT guy.

Another difference that I’ve noted is that the Army FAOs are coded more specifically when it comes to their regional focus. For example, they have folks that are sub-saharan Africa FAOs, North African FAOs, etc…

I work in a division at AFRICOM with six officers. Two of them are Army Africa FAOs leveraging their previous in-region experience, and the third is an Army CENTCOM FAO but was the former DATT in Sudan (speaks Arabic) and supervises the branch that includes Sudan. The remaining three are Navy, only one of whom is in region.

The Army may assign folks to tours out of region, but I get the sense it’s not until the senior levels (e.g. our O-6 division chief is an Army PACOM FAO).

On the topic of education, I came in “fully qualified,” so I didn’t get any lead-in training. My job (when I’m not TAD) is being the easy button for the ODC Chiefs in my country portfolio. It’s definitely been a steep learning curve figuring out how best to assist them when I’m learning on the job. On the bright side, I will get focused training if/when I’m assigned to be an ODC Chief or a DATT in a follow-on tour.

Also, we do send some FAOs to the Marshall Center in lieu of NPS for their initial education, but the Army still dominates the program.

On the record piece (at least in my cohort this summer), it seemed like a mixed bag of people that wanted FAO and transitioned with strong records in their parent community, a few that realized that they didn’t like their job, and some that had no option but to transfer if they wanted to stay in. There were way more O-4s than I expected, even though the community is theoretically trying to push to access officers earlier.

 

[CorsairDriver]

So will we change both the training syllabus and career paths to meet the newest, and most challenging threats ahead, or simply forge forward blindly toward old Navy Command Advancement Goals thinking that the TLAMs (Surface and Subs) will solve all the mission requirements?

It's getting very difficult to convince new SNAs/SNFOs to commit 6/8yrs beyond training delays (some getting TACAIR Aviator Wings as O-3's) to effectively sit on their hands down stream somewhere due to lack of aircraft, or mission. Not that this is "definitive news" from the USNI, but they field some very concerning points.

Unfortunately, I'm seeing this as a parent now, not as an NSI, nor as an active TACAIR Guy.


https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2023/december/strike-warfares-inventory-problem

 

[sevenhelmet]

So will we change both the training syllabus and career paths to meet the newest, and most challenging threats ahead, or simply forge forward blindly toward old Navy Command Advancement Goals thinking that the TLAMs (Surface and Subs) will solve all the mission requirements?

It's getting very difficult to convince new SNAs/SNFOs to commit 6/8yrs beyond training delays (some getting TACAIR Aviator Wings as O-3's) to effectively sit on their hands down stream somewhere due to lack of aircraft, or mission. Not that this is "definitive news" from the USNI, but they field some very concerning points.

Unfortunately, I'm seeing this as a parent now, not as an NSI, nor as an active TACAIR Guy.

View attachment 39373
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2023/december/strike-warfares-inventory-problem

Gee, if only there was a way for a qualified strike lead to show new pilots the ropes beyond being a DH or skipper.

How about a path for the "B string" O-4s (who won't make CO) to go back to a production (e.g. FRS and yes, the VTs) post DH or OP-T, and guarantee flying and community involvement until 20?

PFI was a good initiative in this regard, but I don't have a good sense of how many O-4s have been permitted to take advantage. The fear with it, justified or not, was that PERS would get involved and strip people away from flying for other "hard-fill" jobs outside aviation as manning shortfalls worsened. I think that is a primary driver for people getting out at the O-4 level, particularly after DH. The risk of not making CO just wasn't worth it for a lot of us- assuming we wanted to be a CO in the first place. If you counted noses early and knew you weren't going to get a 12+ month competitive EP, you had a decision to make. Stay in, and you could be a non-current pilot getting out after relatively little professional interaction with your peers during the last 2-3 years of your career on sea duty. Or, get out at the height of your qualifications in aviation and a lot of direct involvement with your organic network.

This post brought to you by coffee and stream-of-consciousness.

 

[CorsairDriver]

Gee, if only there was a way for a qualified strike lead to show new pilots the ropes beyond being a DH or skipper.

How about a path for the "B string" O-4s (who won't make CO) to go back to a production (e.g. FRS and yes, the VTs) post DH or OP-T, and guarantee flying and community involvement until 20?

PFI was a good initiative in this regard, but I don't have a good sense of how many O-4s have been permitted to take advantage. The fear with it, justified or not, was that PERS would get involved and strip people away from flying for other "hard-fill" jobs outside aviation as manning shortfalls worsened. I think that is a primary driver for people getting out at the O-4 level, particularly after DH. The risk of not making CO just wasn't worth it for a lot of us- assuming we wanted to be a CO in the first place. If you counted noses early and knew you weren't going to get a 12+ month competitive EP, you had a decision to make. Stay in, and you could be a non-current pilot getting out after relatively little professional interaction with your peers during the last 2-3 years of your career on sea duty. Or, get out at the height of your qualifications in aviation and a lot of direct involvement with your organic network.

This post brought to you by coffee and stream-of-consciousness.

Yeah ... I fought to do this in the early-mid 90's. Arrived as an ENS at NAS Cecil Field for VA-174 RAG. Fleet as a LTJG. Took the Aviation Retention Bonus on Day One because I was committed. However, I was offered no options of flying coming out of my JO Cruise(s) through Gulf War. Asked for RAG or any Training Command Position, denied. Denied on TPS because I didn't fit their platform need at that time. All quals as JO (TAC Division Lead, PMCF, EWO, LSO, NATOPS/INST Instructor). I had more DAY/NIGHT traps than anyone over my two cruises. I was a hustler ...

I was repeatedly Pushed toward 2-Star Aide position, but didn't think DC duty would do anything but drive me crazy even though I loved that 2-Star and had flown with him multiple times as his LSO. Instead, I fought for months to get an NSI spot to pursue some academia with the Detailer telling me it would be the "death of my career." The last year being an NSI, they approached me for VSI (Voluntary Incentive Pay Exit). Did the math, figured it was a no brainer money wise. Gave up remaining years of bonus to take 20 years of VSI payments. I spent my last year chasing Coeds instead of the PhD. Turned out super well for me!! Extended 4-5 months at my NSI post to fill their instructional need, and made O-4 magically the last month there! The Skipper came in one morning and threw some LCDR Shoulder Boards on my desk, and we proceeded to have a real good laugh about it!

Six Months later, I get a call to see if I wanted to come back in ... No Joke. Turns out, all the fast path guys pretty much all did the same thing. Lots of good airline captains ($$$$$$) in that mix ... but more importantly, lots of corporate knowledge lost in those 6-12 months that could ever be efficiently recovered.

 

[cfam]

Gee, if only there was a way for a qualified strike lead to show new pilots the ropes beyond being a DH or skipper.

How about a path for the "B string" O-4s (who won't make CO) to go back to a production (e.g. FRS and yes, the VTs) post DH or OP-T, and guarantee flying and community involvement until 20?

PFI was a good initiative in this regard, but I don't have a good sense of how many O-4s have been permitted to take advantage. The fear with it, justified or not, was that PERS would get involved and strip people away from flying for other "hard-fill" jobs outside aviation as manning shortfalls worsened. I think that is a primary driver for people getting out at the O-4 level, particularly after DH. The risk of not making CO just wasn't worth it for a lot of us- assuming we wanted to be a CO in the first place. If you counted noses early and knew you weren't going to get a 12+ month competitive EP, you had a decision to make. Stay in, and you could be a non-current pilot getting out after relatively little professional interaction with your peers during the last 2-3 years of your career on sea duty. Or, get out at the height of your qualifications in aviation and a lot of direct involvement with your organic network.

This post brought to you by coffee and stream-of-consciousness.

Totally agree. That was the calculus that led me to lat transfer. I wasn’t interested in becoming a CO, but would have jumped on continuing to fly tactically/instruct. It wasn’t worth the risk to stay in aviation for another tour off the CO track knowing that non-flying/boat orders would’ve been in my future. There has to be a better way to leverage the experience/skill set of folks who don’t want to or can’t stay on the golden path.

 

[Flash]

Totally agree. That was the calculus that led me to lat transfer. I wasn’t interested in becoming a CO, but would have jumped on continuing to fly tactically/instruct. It wasn’t worth the risk to stay in aviation for another tour off the CO track knowing that non-flying/boat orders would’ve been in my future. There has to be a better way to leverage the experience/skill set of folks who don’t want to or can’t stay on the golden path.

I am not sure what the solution entails but I think that is the key point, one becoming more important with the rising threats we face.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Six Months later, I get a call to see if I wanted to come back in ... No Joke. Turns out, all the fast path guys pretty much all did the same thing. Lots of good airline captains ($$$$$$) in that mix ... but more importantly, lots of corporate knowledge lost in those 6-12 months that could ever be efficiently recovered.

I got a text from a former squadronmate during the pandemic, and maybe a year after I had finished my DH tour, asking the same thing. If I wanted to come back in, my orders were written... to DH round 2!

Yeah, hard pass.

 

[zippy]

This effectively creates two problems. One, it stops the up and out fitrep progression. I hate it too but until we fix it, holding senior people on station their first tour just fucks the people behind them.

Two, it puts the JO back in the drivers seat with respect to getting out current and near their MSR. Wings + 8 gave Millington all the leverage and any “give me a third flying tour and I won’t drop papers” verbal deals dried up (really they went to post DHs, at least in helo world). Unless manning across the board gets as bad as VFA and VT(J), those boat jobs really are a priority than teaching FAMs in VTs.

And if we’re honest, barring big events like 08/09 recession or Covid, most JOs know if they’re in or out going to their disassociated. You’re either going to eat whatever shit boat sandwich and take the bonus, or you’re done and playing for the exits/TAR/FAO/whatever. Occasionally I’ve met the “don’t wanna fly just sea/shore to 20 LCDR” but there’s usually extenuating circumstances like dual mil, spousal employment, special needs kid, etc.

The big leverage of wings +8 used to be that it was very tough to get a flying job that made financial sense without being flight current (100-200 in the last 12 months). However, that hiring environment has changed and airlines are adapting to the annoyance of Wings +8/ +10 (Air Force) on their hiring plans. Originally SWA allowed for 2 of the last 5 non flying prior to hiring in case people fell outside of 12 month flight currency, Delta recently started to let people retiring apply and interview 24months out now, and UAL just started a military pilot program where pilots over a year out from available (presumably JO/DH on a flying tour) can interview get the CJO and have a class waiting for them when they get out even when they have to do a timing mandated non flying tour.

And for the helo guys… RTP programs at some airlines have made up 15-25% of New Hire classes. Last year helo pilots with 500hrs in the RJ and R-ATP min fixed wing times were getting called by legacies. This year, I’ve seen dudes get called for interviews at legacies with R-ATP minimum fixed wing time and a fresh type rating at an airline with an RTP program (Pretty sure one guy got his AA interview before he got his License in the mail from the FAA).

In either case, the leverage of a non flying tour at the end of one’s commitment is greatly diminished. I know people who decided to get out specifically because of detailer fuck fuck games and lack of transparency because PERS-43 felt it had them by the balls and then had to come up with a path way to get back flying in the outside. Now a pilot can have a CJO waiting for them before they even get contacted by the detailer to discuss orders if they know they’re getting out. Alternatively if they want to stay in or they’re on the fence and the detailer blows it by not giving them something worth they feel is worth keeping them in or something needed for their family situation, they can get a CJO before they leave their current gig so they can show up at their next tour and submit their resignation via NSIPS the day they’re gained by the command, get the clock running for min time on station, start terminal leave on a Friday 10 months down the road and be in class the following Tuesday.

 

[SynixMan]

The big leverage of wings +8 used to be that it was very tough to get a flying job that made financial sense without being flight current (100-200 in the last 12 months). However, that hiring environment has changed and airlines are adapting to the annoyance of Wings +8/ +10 (Air Force) on their hiring plans. Originally SWA allowed for 2 of the last 5 non flying prior to hiring in case people fell outside of 12 month flight currency, Delta recently started to let people retiring apply and interview 24months out now, and UAL just started a military pilot program where pilots over a year out from available (presumably JO/DH on a flying tour) can interview get the CJO and have a class waiting for them when they get out even when they have to do a timing mandated non flying tour.

And for the helo guys… RTP programs at some airlines have made up 15-25% of New Hire classes. Last year helo pilots with 500hrs in the RJ and R-ATP min fixed wing times were getting called by legacies. This year, I’ve seen dudes get called for interviews at legacies with R-ATP minimum fixed wing time and a fresh type rating at an airline with an RTP program (Pretty sure one guy got his AA interview before he got his License in the mail from the FAA).

In either case, the leverage of a non flying tour at the end of one’s commitment is greatly diminished. I know people who decided to get out specifically because of detailer fuck fuck games and lack of transparency because PERS-43 felt it had them by the balls and then had to come up with a path way to get back flying in the outside. Now a pilot can have a CJO waiting for them before they even get contacted by the detailer to discuss orders if they know they’re getting out. Alternatively if they want to stay in or they’re on the fence and the detailer blows it by not giving them something worth they feel is worth keeping them in or something needed for their family situation, they can get a CJO before they leave their current gig so they can show up at their next tour and submit their resignation via NSIPS the day they’re gained by the command, get the clock running for min time on station, start terminal leave on a Friday 10 months down the road and be in class the following Tuesday.

We're largely in agreement. These are unprecedented times for pilots. As much as the transition was a gigantic ass pain for me with noncurrency, COVID, penalty lap at a regional, now commuting to ANC, things really have settled down and I don't have any regrets leaving big Navy. I still get my fun time on drill weekends and AT.

Not having to move and my spouse settling into a career without a looming PCS has also exponentially improved my marriage and stress levels.

 

[robav8r]

JR Haley used to fly (day only) when he was the CO of TR, and he would manage to make it to Whidbey for a few FCLPs. I was, more often than not, his boat ECMO. Great dude, but that whole experience probably took a year or two off of my life expectancy. Dude liked to op-check the stall warning horn in the Prowler at the 90. ?

We ALWAYS gave JR a little “extra”, especially when launching off Cat 4. We would always get a smile from him afterwards. We did the same for JAWS too . . .

 

[NoMoreMrNiceGuy]

If I recall, as CSG-5 he may have also been responsible for blowing out a tire or two and FOD-ing out the runway back home at Atsugi for VAQ-136's (and the Prowler's) final CVW-5 fly off.
Lotsa folks had to divert to Yokota and a lot of cranky families had homecoming delayed juuuuust a bit...