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FLASH: Confidence Shattered

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
AND... federal employees WILL get paid for furloughed days. It had to be that way. It removes a huge amount of pressure to make a deal sooner than later. That is 800,000 potential votes that now are far more happy than before. Sure, if living pay check to pay check it may still be hard on some, but the political pressure is far reduced. They aren't so much paying federal workers, they are paying them off. As mentioned above, the few essential workers that are still on the job won't get any bonuses for doing the work of many of their fellow non essential co workers. And yet it was argued it was the "fair" and "right" thing to do to pay furloughed federal workers. Wouldn't it also be fair than to reward the essential workers that are working so much harder now, making up for furloughed co-workers? Wouldn't it be fair and right to ensure government contractors didn't have to furlough their employees? No one wants to make the hard decisions. No one wants to inflict necessary pain and accept the responsibility.
 

HercDriver

Idiots w/boats = job security
pilot
Super Moderator
First, the president won both times because enough people thought that Obamacare meant free health insurance.
He won both times because he ran a better campaign and more people wanted him in office. Unless you have something that shows differently, I'll take your point as pure conjecture, pulled out of your nether regions.
It was strategically not implemented until his second term. People are just now figuring out how high the rates are for the government option since the prices were finally released this week, and they're generally not happy about it. Turns out that their concept of "poverty" is not the same as Uncle Sam's.

So far, anecdotally, I've seen plenty of folks who will benefit from their state's healthcare exchanges. I have family in NC whose rates will increase a bit, but a) Their Governor refused state exchanges, and b) Their present insurance increased premiums by shifting the costs. Sadly, ACA doesn't address cost-shifting...yet.

Secondly, the Republicans took over the House precisely because Obamacare was unpopular in many districts.

No, that is incorrect, no matter how many times this old wive's tale is repeated. In the exit
Polling I saw in 2010
Showed the economy being the chief reason people were in satisfied with
him.
"Nowhere is this dissatisfaction more strongly felt than with Mr. Obama's handling of the economy, the issue viewed as the most important facing the country by 62 percent of the midterm electorate."
http://m.cbsnews.com/blogsfullstory.rbml?feed_id=71&catid=20021591&videofeed=null



Finally, Obama modified the law on his own with no input from Congress since it was signed in 2011. Last I checked, he's not supposed to be able to do that. He unilaterally delayed the employer mandate.

The only things the last bill passed by the House, passed on Sep 30, did to Obamacare is delay the individual mandate to coincide with the employer mandate, repeal Congressional subsidies, and repeal the extra medical supply tax. It didn't de-fund Obamacare at all, nor would it prevent the executive branch from proceeding with creating the government option. This resolution was rejected by the Senate strictly along party lines. The latest resolution is wrongfully being reported by many media outlets as "delaying the implementation of Obamacare for a year." If the Democrats had any sense in them, they would have supported this plan because the executive branch is way behind in creating the infrastructure required to support the new law, but they think playing politics and standing firm is more important.

So basically the GOP in the House moved from its original position on Sep 20 to completely defund Obamacare, to a fairly reasonable bill that the Democrats refuse to even talk about, probably because they're being told by the administration and Democrat party leaders not to put POTUS into the awkward position of signing a bill that un-does his executive orders or vetoing the budget outright.

Do you realize why the conservative think tank The Heritage Foundation came up with the individual mandate? (Speakkio, I'm 99% sure you do, but for other folks...). Because spreading costs among a greater (and healthier/younger) populace brings costs down. No one who is the least bit educated on the law would implement the ACA without the mandate; some estimates have an increase of approx 27% in individual costs without the mandate. Then Cruz and his ilk would have raised a fuss and pointed at the failure of the ACA and how expensive it is - a failure sold to folks like you who don't know better.

In the meantime, congrats John Q. Public on having a new mandatory $500+/mo bill to pay for insurance that covers half your medical costs, even if you only make $9/hour, and your employer is cutting your hours so he doesn't have to provide an alternative.

PS: Let's also not forget that we wouldn't be in this silly situation 3 years in a row if the President didn't sign that sequestriation bill into effect in 2011.

Costs of insurance vary from state to state. I'm sure we can both cherry-pick examples. I'm just glad folks are finally going to be responsible enough to get insurance, instead of waiting to go to the ER and having me, the tax payer pick up the tab.

Also, the sequestration was a trigger for folks on both sides to negotiate. Sadly, you can't negotiate with the teapartiers. It was suggested by the prez as a sword of Damocles, but he didn't realize how folks on the right wanted cuts...and they got "98%" of what they wanted in the last debt deal.
 
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wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
...I'm just glad folks are finally going to be responsible enough to get insurance, instead of waiting to go to the ER and having me, the tax payer pick up the tab....
Let's be real. Most of the people that are going to be getting insurance for the first time now are not doing so because they are "going to be responsible enough". They didn't wake up Tuesday and all of a sudden were more responsible than the day before. They are getting insurance because it is the law. They are being made to get it. Oh, and it just may be free/subsidized for many. Say what you will about the individual mandate, but it didn't make people responsible. And about ER visits. Many of the people that are just now coming under the ACA will still go to the ER for ordinary stuff. Why? Because that is how they think. That is how they were brought up. That is what everyone in their community does. They don't care one way or the other. Why take time from work or call ahead to make an appointment when you can just walk into the hospital and get free care? So you see, the tax payer pays no matter what. Either it is passed on by hospitals because they can't collect a payment and are obligated to provide service, or we pay when the hospital bills the ACA free/subsidized insurance. And how do we know this? Many of the folks that go to ERs for simple stuff are on Medicare or Medicaid. They have insurance. They can go to a doctor's office. But they don't. They are not responsible (Medicaid didn't make them responsible). They don't care. They are not invested in the system at all. If it is free it is more likely to be abused. 2-3 years from now, if we are still stuck with Obamacare as is, just look at the stats. ER abuse will hardly change at all and we will still be paying for it.
 
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Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
He won both times because he ran a better campaign and more people wanted him in office. Unless you have something that shows differently, I'll take your point as pure conjecture, pulled out of your nether regions.
You can't have it both ways. You mentioned his reelection in a previous post being an indication of public endorsement for Obamacare. Now you're saying it's not (which would go against your previous point on why Republicans shouldn't be fighting this battle anymore). Which is it?

So far, anecdotally, I've seen plenty of folks who will benefit from their state's healthcare exchanges. I have family in NC whose rates will increase a bit, but a) Their Governor refused state exchanges, and b) Their present insurance increased premiums by shifting the costs. Sadly, ACA doesn't address cost-shifting...yet.
I wasn't speaking anecdotally. They ran a story on one of the major cable news networks, can't remember which, a few weeks ago about states that would see increased or lower premiums. Most states will see an increase, and we don't live in a fairy tale land where people can just move to the states with cheaper premiums. It depends on what laws were in effect prior to the ACA and what insurance providers already covered in that state.

No, that is incorrect, no matter how many times this old wive's tale is repeated. In the exit
Polling I saw in 2010
Showed the economy being the chief reason people were in satisfied with
him.
"Nowhere is this dissatisfaction more strongly felt than with Mr. Obama's handling of the economy, the issue viewed as the most important facing the country by 62 percent of the midterm electorate."
http://m.cbsnews.com/blogsfullstory.rbml?feed_id=71&catid=20021591&videofeed=null
So because the economy was the number 1 issue, the couldn't possibly also be against Obamacare? Considering that the employer mandate has a cutoff at part-time, you don't think that will cause a massive reduction in work hours across the country? Actually, it already caused the reduction because successful businesses plan ahead.

Do you realize why the conservative think tank The Heritage Foundation came up with the individual mandate? (Speakkio, I'm 99% sure you do, but for other folks...). Because spreading costs among a greater (and healthier/younger) populace brings costs down. No one who is the least bit educated on the law would implement the ACA without the mandate; some estimates have an increase of approx 27% in individual costs without the mandate. Then Cruz and his ilk would have raised a fuss and pointed at the failure of the ACA and how expensive it is - a failure sold to folks like you who don't know better.
I'm aware of the theoretical reasoning behind the individual mandate. No, I don't care which party came up with it because I'm not a Republican shill like Hannity. If the GOP were still beating the drum for repealing the ACA altogether, I'd be with you in saying they're being stupid. But the compromise bill passed by the House on Sep 30 was fairly reasonable in my opinion -- not because it chips away at the ACA like the GOP wants, but because it at least acknowledges some flaws in the law and gives the government time to correct course.

What bugs me is that we have changed the concept of insurance actually was meant to be. Insurance isn't something you sign up for so everyone else can foot the bill for a lardtard's diabetes, high cholesterol medication, and knee specialist appointments because he feels like gorging himself with food. It isn't something everyone signs up for so a smoker can have his lung cancer treatment 'for free.' And as heartless as this sounds, it's also not supposed to pay for terminally ill patients who seek experimental cancer treatment running hundreds of thousands of dollars to increase their chances of living by 2% or to keep 85 year old people alive another 2 or 3 years.

Insurance is supposed to be a group of low-risk individuals pooling their money together to pay for a catastrophe that would be unaffordable in one lump sum. Stuff like crap, my appendix burst. Oh darn, I tore my ACL. I fell and I need stitches. Etc. It's not supposed to be something that pays for chronic care nor is it supposed to pay for routine care, but that's what people expect it to do and the ACA has now legislated that stigma. I can't purchase homeowners insurance AFTER my home catches fire and expect them to foot the bill, but people expect to get health insurance after they get a condition and have everyone else subsidize their care. That's not why insurance exists.

If you believe everyone has a right to that sort of care, fine, but the optimal solution to that is a single payer, non-profit healthcare system.
I'm just glad folks are finally going to be responsible enough to get insurance, instead of waiting to go to the ER and having me, the tax payer pick up the tab.
Huh?

If you go to the ER without insurance, they patch you up and send you a bill. If you're a responsible citizen who cares about his credit score, you pay the bill. If you're a broke hobo without insurance not signed up for medicaid who doesn't care about credit, you don't pay the bill. Do you think that the broke hobos are going to sign up for $500/month health insurance plans? No. Their healthcare costs are still spread to everyone else. While we're talking about hospitals, before I mandated insurance coverage I would probably try to have someone figure out why it costs over $376/minute to use the operating room (and $90 for a bottle of salt water) because oftentimes the fee schedules paid by insurance companies have no rhyme or reason to them.

$500+/month for 60% coverage is a lot of money. That's $6,000/year. Add your annual checkup and bloodwork, and now you're at $6,300/year. Everytime you get sick, add another $100 to that cost because the insurance company is only paying half of the visit and meds.

When I was post-college working entry level jobs, I wouldn't be able to afford that, and I was living with my parents. I chose to go into debt if a catastrophe happened. Today, if I were to spend $500/month toward health insurance, I'd have to do a lot of shifting of money around. Mostly, I'd have to take the money from retirement savings which would just put more burden on the next generation like Boomers currently love to do. Frankly, if I were in a position to afford $500/mo for 60% insurance (or close to $1000/mo for full coverage), I'd rather put it into my own emergency healthcare savings account. After about 5 years, I'd have enough to cover most medical emergencies for my entire family. The bonus is that if I'm lucky enough to stay healthy, I can stop putting more money into the account and still have the funds. If I stop paying my insurance premiums, the coverage stops.

Why take time from work or call ahead to make an appointment when you can just walk into the hospital and get free care?
Probably because they work jobs where they don't get paid for going to the doctor and may have a boss that gets on their ass the second it looks like they're not busting their ass. If you're living paycheck-to-paycheck for $9/hour, you can't afford to take 1.5 hours off to see Dr. Smith for 10 minutes to write you an antibiotic for a cough (15 min drive there to arrive for your appointment, sit in the waiting room for 20 minutes because they're over-booked, get called into the room to wait for 5 minutes, nurse comes in and spends 5 minutes taking your vitals, then you wait another 15 minutes for the doctor to finally come in and listen to your lungs before he finally writes you a prescription, then 15 minutes back to work).

I actually find it fairly obnoxious that few doctors work around the everyday-man's work schedule.
 
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jg54170

OCS JAN12th
For the Commander Navy Recruiting Command facebook page.

Navy Recruiting Nation,

"We are pleased to announce the immediate recall of the large majority of our Navy Recruiting Command (NRC) civilians placed on emergency furlough during the
government shutdown. These recalled employees are directed to return to work tomorrow, Monday, Oct 7. A very small number of our key employees are not being
recalled at this time and that specific group's leadership has been directed to notify those affected employees. Unfortunately, we are not yet authorized to bring back our valued contractor employees. CNRC will remain engaged and keep you informed through all of our communication resources.

Thanks for everyone's flexibility and patience. Welcome back!"
 

jg54170

OCS JAN12th
As far as the ACA, I believe that people will see the negative effects here shortly as it becomes implemented. My issue with it as mentioned by some folks above is that it is not a viable system due to how insurance works. You have people pay in that are low risk with hopes that it never needs to be used....with the ACA you can not deny anyone with pre-existing conditions which is going to drain the pot dry. A lot of the younger folks I have spoke with view the "tax" or "fee" as a better option after looking at the rates. The invincibles that are being relied on to pay for the ones who need the insurance don't believe they need it...why you may ask? Simple, they are healthy and don't think anything bad will happen to them. Once they get cancer or fat and need the insurance they will pony up and join in and contribute to the whole problem.

There is also going to be a shortage of care, I know several Canadians who have spoken about their health system. After some long discussion I can see why people idolize their health system and why some despize it. You will wait a long time for care, think sitting 2 hours in the ER is bad now?

Sometimes I wonder if politicians have ever taken an economics course. The government is going to say this is what you can charge and it is no longer going to be profitable to be a DR. Why accrue $100k+ in student loan debt when someone can take their brains to another field and pay off that debt and make a killing.

Just a rant, I wish the politicians would come to the table and not worry about their reelection bid is going to look like and just do what is in the best interest of America.

BTW: wife just picked up a prescription and our charge went from $2 to $6. Not going to break the bank but when inquired with the pharmacist, she whispered "its cause Obamacare, everything is already going up"
 

HercDriver

Idiots w/boats = job security
pilot
Super Moderator
You can't have it both ways. You mentioned his reelection in a previous post being an indication of public endorsement for Obamacare. Now you're saying it's not (which would go against your previous point on why Republicans shouldn't be fighting this battle anymore). Which is it?
He ran on healthcare, among many other things. You're earlier assertion (which I noticed, you avoided providing info to back up), was strangely specific. And I've seen nothing that supported it.
I wasn't speaking anecdotally. They ran a story on one of the major cable news networks, can't remember which, a few weeks ago about states that would see increased or lower premiums. Most states will see an increase, and we don't live in a fairy tale land where people can just move to the states with cheaper premiums. It depends on what laws were in effect prior to the ACA and what insurance providers already covered in that state.

So because the economy was the number 1 issue, the couldn't possibly also be against Obamacare? Considering that the employer mandate has a cutoff at part-time, you don't think that will cause a massive reduction in work hours across the country? Actually, it already caused the reduction because successful businesses plan ahead.
You assert that GOP gained seats because of ACA-when shown you're incorrect, you're response is "Yeah, but technically healthcare has to do with the economy", like a sea lawyer.
I'm aware of the theoretical reasoning behind the individual mandate. No, I don't care which party came up with it because I'm not a Republican shill like Hannity. If the GOP were still beating the drum for repealing the ACA altogether, I'd be with you in saying they're being stupid. But the compromise bill passed by the House on Sep 30 was fairly reasonable in my opinion -- not because it chips away at the ACA like the GOP wants, but because it at least acknowledges some flaws in the law and gives the government time to correct course.
Again, taking out the mandate causes a dramatic increase in costs since this decreases the pool of healthy people. It's not being done 'cuz the GOP has a few concerns here and there - they want to hinder it.
What bugs me is that we have changed the concept of insurance actually was meant to be. Insurance isn't something you sign up for so everyone else can foot the bill for a lardtard's diabetes, high cholesterol medication, and knee specialist appointments because he feels like gorging himself with food. It isn't something everyone signs up for so a smoker can have his lung cancer treatment 'for free.' And as heartless as this sounds, it's also not supposed to pay for terminally ill patients who seek experimental cancer treatment running hundreds of thousands of dollars to increase their chances of living by 2% or to keep 85 year old people alive another 2 or 3 years.
I'm sure the death panels will prevent this.
Insurance is supposed to be a group of low-risk individuals pooling their money together to pay for a catastrophe that would be unaffordable in one lump sum. Stuff like crap, my appendix burst. Oh darn, I tore my ACL. I fell and I need stitches. Etc. It's not supposed to be something that pays for chronic care nor is it supposed to pay for routine care, but that's what people expect it to do and the ACA has now legislated that stigma.
ACA legislated this stigma? You mean you pay for your check ups and routine care? Sorry, it has been this way for years.
I can't purchase homeowners insurance AFTER my home catches fire and expect them to foot the bill, but people expect to get health insurance after they get a condition and have everyone else subsidize their care. That's not why insurance exists.

If you believe everyone has a right to that sort of care, fine, but the optimal solution to that is a single payer, non-profit healthcare system.
Neat, but no widespread political support in this country for it.
Huh?

If you go to the ER without insurance, they patch you up and send you a bill. If you're a responsible citizen who cares about his credit score, you pay the bill. If you're a broke hobo without insurance not signed up for medicaid who doesn't care about credit, you don't pay the bill. Do you think that the broke hobos are going to sign up for $500/month health insurance plans? No. Their healthcare costs are still spread to everyone else. While we're talking about hospitals, before I mandated insurance coverage I would probably try to have someone figure out why it costs over $376/minute to use the operating room (and $90 for a bottle of salt water) because oftentimes the fee schedules paid by insurance companies have no rhyme or reason to them.

$500+/month for 60% coverage is a lot of money. That's $6,000/year. Add your annual checkup and bloodwork, and now you're at $6,300/year. Everytime you get sick, add another $100 to that cost because the insurance company is only paying half of the visit and meds.

When I was post-college working entry level jobs, I wouldn't be able to afford that, and I was living with my parents. I chose to go into debt if a catastrophe happened. Today, if I were to spend $500/month toward health insurance, I'd have to do a lot of shifting of money around. Mostly, I'd have to take the money from retirement savings which would just put more burden on the next generation like Boomers currently love to do.
You do realize in your example that with ACA you could have been on your parent's insurance until age 26...kinda renders your point moot. (Unless you were living with your folks in your late 20s, and to that I say WTF? )
Frankly, if I were in a position to afford $500/mo for 60% insurance (or close to $1000/mo for full coverage), I'd rather put it into my own emergency healthcare savings account. After about 5 years, I'd have enough to cover most medical emergencies for my entire family. The bonus is that if I'm lucky enough to stay healthy, I can stop putting more money into the account and still have the funds. If I stop paying my insurance premiums, the coverage stops.
Curious-which exchange charged $500 per mo for insurance for a guy your age?
Probably because they work jobs where they don't get paid for going to the doctor and may have a boss that gets on their ass the second it looks like they're not busting their ass. If you're living paycheck-to-paycheck for $9/hour, you can't afford to take 1.5 hours off to see Dr. Smith for 10 minutes to write you an antibiotic for a cough (15 min drive there to arrive for your appointment, sit in the waiting room for 20 minutes because they're over-booked, get called into the room to wait for 5 minutes, nurse comes in and spends 5 minutes taking your vitals, then you wait another 15 minutes for the doctor to finally come in and listen to your lungs before he finally writes you a prescription, then 15 minutes back to work).

I actually find it fairly obnoxious that few doctors work around the everyday-man's work schedule.
 

villanelle

Nihongo dame desu
Contributor
To me, this isn't even about whether the ACA is a shitty idea or not. It just doesn't have a place in this discussion.

If there were adding gun control legislation (for or against) or abortion regulation (making it easier or more difficult to get them) or the death penalty (either way), or anything else, it should be handled on its own. Even the things in that mix that I feel strongly about would still piss me off if they were being used to hold the budget hostage.

If the right wants to try to take down the ACA, have at it. But get it passed on its own merits, not because you are threatening the budget and the debt ceiling.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Why take time from work or call ahead to make an appointment when you can just walk into the hospital and get free care? So you see, the tax payer pays no matter what.
Probably because they work jobs where they don't get paid for going to the doctor and may have a boss that gets on their ass the second it looks like they're not busting their ass. If you're living paycheck-to-paycheck for $9/hour, you can't afford to take 1.5 hours off to see Dr. Smith for 10 minutes to write you an antibiotic for a cough (15 min drive there to arrive for your appointment, sit in the waiting room for 20 minutes because they're over-booked, get called into the room to wait for 5 minutes, nurse comes in and spends 5 minutes taking your vitals, then you wait another 15 minutes for the doctor to finally come in and listen to your lungs before he finally writes you a prescription, then 15 minutes back to work).
This is certainly true to an extent. But nothing about the ACA will change that. My point is that people that promote Obamacare by claiming savings because uninsured will not be popping into ERs are just wrong. ER abuse comes from Medicaid insured now. We pay for it now and will pay for it under the ACA. You don't get something for nothing, no matter how many times ACA supporters say it.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
To me, this isn't even about whether the ACA is a shitty idea or not. It just doesn't have a place in this discussion.

If there were adding gun control legislation (for or against) or abortion regulation (making it easier or more difficult to get them) or the death penalty (either way), or anything else, it should be handled on its own. Even the things in that mix that I feel strongly about would still piss me off if they were being used to hold the budget hostage.

If the right wants to try to take down the ACA, have at it. But get it passed on its own merits, not because you are threatening the budget and the debt ceiling.
You have a point, but I don't see it as exactly analogous. I understand that other compromise positions are being promoted now that are not entirely budget related. But the constitution says Congress controls the purse. It is part of the checks and balances devised by the founders. There is nothing at all wrong with congress defunding any program. If congress can refuse to fund a war, clearly within the president's authority as commander in chief and the maker of foreign policy then congress can defund a law that is not even fully implemented and considered flawed by both parties. That there isn't a current budget and it has come to a CR dispute is the fault of the Senate, controlled by the President's party.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
He ran on healthcare, among many other things. You're earlier assertion (which I noticed, you avoided providing info to back up), was strangely specific. And I've seen nothing that supported it.

You assert that GOP gained seats because of ACA-when shown you're incorrect, you're response is "Yeah, but technically healthcare has to do with the economy", like a sea lawyer.
Several candidates ran on (and won) House seats in part because they wanted to repeal Obamacare. I'm not going to go through and dig up all their old campaign sites because you don't want to believe it.

You posted an exit poll stating that voters rated the economy as the number one issue as evidence that they wanted to keep Obamacare. What I'm saying is that says nothing either way toward their views for Obamacare.

Again, taking out the mandate causes a dramatic increase in costs since this decreases the pool of healthy people. It's not being done 'cuz the GOP has a few concerns here and there - they want to hinder it.
You're not understanding what the GOP is asking for. They want to delay the individual mandate to coincide with the employer mandate. Ie, they want the bill to be implemented the way that it was signed into law, just a year later.

None of the House resolutions that passed are looking to repeal the individual mandate altogether.

ACA legislated this stigma? You mean you pay for your check ups and routine care? Sorry, it has been this way for years.
Neat, but no widespread political support in this country for it.
It's been around for a while, but that doesn't make it right and it's certainly not a system that we should have cemented into law. The checkups aren't the problem; the problem is going to be in 10 years when my generation is paying out the nose to keep boomers on life support and a coctail of expensive prescriptions. That's not health insurance, that's subsidized chronic care.

You do realize in your example that with ACA you could have been on your parent's insurance until age 26...kinda renders your point moot. (Unless you were living with your folks in your late 20s, and to that I say WTF? )
Yes, if they had their own employer-based insurance that covered me at little charge then sure. But if the purchase their insurance through an exchange, it's just making them pay the bill for me as my health insurance premium just gets added to theirs, and they might not be able to afford the extra bill by that time.

Curious-which exchange charged $500 per mo for insurance for a guy your age?
I was quoting what other people shopping for Obamacare have come to find out about premium costs.

From healthcare.gov, the national average annual cost of a 'silver' plan that covers 70% of costs for a single individual is $4800. But since you asked, a person my age living in California would have a premium of $400/month (and $1100 for my family size). Not too far off, and the $400/mo premium is a big ripoff considering I've probably not used $4800 worth of medical care in the last decade. Goes back to the fact that I could've put that money into my own account and had a nice emergency medical nest egg for myself. Had I done that from the time I graduated college, I could've paid cash for the birth of my two children (my most expensive bills to date) and still had plenty of money left over.

By contrast, a 64 year old on early retirement making $25,000/year has a premium of almost $11,000/year, of which $9,000/year is subsidized by everyone else.
 
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Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
If there were adding gun control legislation (for or against) or abortion regulation (making it easier or more difficult to get them) or the death penalty (either way), or anything else, it should be handled on its own. Even the things in that mix that I feel strongly about would still piss me off if they were being used to hold the budget hostage.
It's not exactly analagous because a tougher gun control law or repealing the death penalty doesn't necessarily require a large amount of additional federal funds to enforce. The ACA is projected to add a huge amount of money to mandatory spending, so it belongs at the heart of any budget discussion along with any other expensive federal program.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
It's not exactly analagous because a tougher gun control law or repealing the death penalty doesn't necessarily require a large amount of additional federal funds to enforce. The ACA is projected to add a huge amount of money to mandatory spending, so it belongs at the heart of any budget discussion along with any other expensive federal program.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...30/a-government-shutdown-wont-stop-obamacare/

I don't claim to be an expert on the ACA, but the linked article says the program is mostly funded by mandatory spending. Which, if I'm not mistaken, has no relation to the appropriated funding budget that Congress needs to pass.

So it seems to me that all they're doing (the GOP) is saying, "We think you're wrong, the majority of voters are wrong, and we're willing to derail the economy over it."

Edit: Better link
http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...&File_id=0af8b42a-b2b9-484b-b0d4-9d27e2b690ac
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I don't claim to be an expert on the ACA, but the linked article says the program is mostly funded by mandatory spending. Which, if I'm not mistaken, has no relation to the appropriated funding budget that Congress needs to pass.
You are correct; the only spending that needs a bill to be allocated on an annual basis is discretionary spending.

The relation is that the treasury takes in $X, and spends $Y. To spend $Y, it borrows $Z. Y includes both mandatory and discretionary spending.

I'm sure you're aware that disagreements over where to cut mandatory and discretionary spending vs. whether to raise taxes is at the heart of why Congress hasn't been able to strike a bargain over the past few years. If Congress were to just look at discretionary spending in a vacuum every year, we'll never get to a sustainable budget (which is what eventually happens as deadlines come up and each side just agrees to kick the can down the road). There needed to be candid discussions about where to cut mandatory spending before the ACA was ever conceived.
 
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