Fixed Wing vs. Helos

[Mahler]

All of my education (aerospace engineering) and flying time has concentrated solely on the fixed wing world. It wasn't until recently that I was introduced to these amazing things we call helicopters. I got a couple of books about them, and this coming up semester I'm taking an engineering class on how they fly. I have to say, from an engineer’s standpoint they are much more interesting to study than airplanes.

I finally went on a few lessons out at the airport and being a fixed wing pilot, I can definitely tell you helos are much harder to fly. It makes me wonder why Hornet drivers are known to be the elite and helo slots are considered the bottom of the barrel. After all, flying at 150 knots at tree top level in the darkest of night takes a whole lot of skill - let alone nerves of steel. Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to downplay fighter pilots at all. I know it is an extremely difficult and exhilarating community. I'm just trying to figure out why helos aren't surrounded with the same amount of prestige. Anyone else have an opinion here?

James

 

[Jeff29]

Tom Cruise didn't fly them.

 

[Frumby]

The backbone of Marine Aviation is the helo but unfortunately, they aren't sexy. They are slow and susceptible to ground fire and to a jet guy that's crazy. To a grunt, they are lifesavers. Its all relative in the pecking order. Honestly, I've flown both fixed and rotary and am currently working on a type rating in an old Vietnam Vintage UH-34D so I can say with some level of expertise that flying fighters is more difficult then a helicopter. Sure, fixed wings are simple flying from point a to point b. Get entangled in a furball, then the level of difficulty increases. By the way, in reference to your example, try getting shot off the end of a ship at night, ingress at 200ft/420kts in the goo for a 35 minute run, unload your weapons then bingo to Texaco to fuel so you can go back to the ship and land. I love all types of flying but remember, when the wings move faster then the fuselage....something just ain't right. Semper Fi! Frumby

Attack Pilot
Major USMC

 

[Mahler]

Maybe Tom Cruise didn't, but Tommy Lee Jones and Nicholas Cage did. I love that move... anyway....

I've never flown a fighter, so I can't really say anything about it. I wasn't trying to say anything about fighters anyway. I was just trying to get the scoop on the helo community. Pretty much every Seahawk pilot I've talked to says they wouldn't give it up for anything. What really sounds like fun is the CSAR and special missions a lot of squadrons are converting to with the new SH-60R and MH-60S. Like I said, I I haven't really been exposed to helos before and I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about them.

A lot of people, and I was one of them, think that helos are just slow moving work-horses that just fly straight and level from point to point. I learned there are helos out there that will do some pretty amazing things. They can do rolls, loops and some are rated up to 20G's. When I was preflighting a plane one day I watched a life flight helicopter come low over the airfield at about 120-140 knots. At about mid field it went up into a vertical and climbed about, oh I'd say 800-1000 feet, turned 180 degrees and came into a hover directly over the point it started it's climb. I was pretty amazed to say the least. And this was a civilian medivac chopper! An Agusta 109 to be exact. My flight instructor came out to the plane all excited and said "Oh my god, did you see that?". I just hope they didn't have a patient in the back at the time . A couple of days later we both got our first ride in a helicopter when the Sherrif's Bell 407 came and picked us up after our plane went down in the middle of nowhere. But that's a whole other story.

What I'm getting at is I think helos could be just as excited to fly as jets. I wanted to know if anyone else knew more about the helo communites and what it's like to fly with them. But don't get me wrong, jets are still my first choice right now. That is, if they can ever get this Anthro thing figured out and let me know if it's actually an option for me.

James

 

[Frumby]

I wasn't trying to sound so pro jet (even though in my heart I am). My Dad was a Marine helo pilot so I grew up with complete respect and admiration for what Helo's can do and what they can accomplish and the skill of their pilots. I do love to fly helicopters (That's fly, not ride in them)and I can tell you, they are a heck of a lot of fun. Studying helicopter aerodynamics is also a interesting and amazing endeavor. Truth be known, depending on what your goals are in the military, you rarely if ever see a helicopter pilot advance to flag level. You might say:"I don't want to be an admiral." Then your missing the point. Communities receive funding and upgrade when one of their own makes a stink at the Puzzle Palace (Pentagon). Navy helos are not as well funded as Marine(The 3 star in charge of all Marine Aviation is a 46 pilot). Secondly, helo guys have a lot of difficulty finding flying jobs when they get out. If they want to fly in the airlines, they get hired by the commuters starting at $14,000 until they can build enough fixed wing time to get hired or they don't fly at all and work at a real job. I commissioned my wife's sorority sister into the Navy and she became a 60 pilot. Now she teaches Hueys at HMT-303 in Camp Pendletlon. If you want to get her advice or her experiences, let me know. She loves flying helicopters.
I've always believed that its not what you fly but who you fly with and I still believe that to be true. I'm just trying to give you a little further insight on the future but I would never tell to not follow a dream. I hope I clarified myself a little better. Semper Fi! Frumby


Attack Pilot
Major USMC

 

[Mahler]

Frumby,

That would be great talking to your contact in the helo community. Again, I would really like to fly jets, but with the Navy trying to figure out its anthro standards, it's pretty much up in the air weather or not it will even be an option for me. I want to start learning about other communities so I can make a decision if the jet pipeline is closed to me. If I do end up in helos and decide not to make the military a full career, I've always thought it would be aweseome to be an EMS or corporate helicopter pilot. But that's all so far away right now. Right now I'm concentrating on graduating (I'm starting to belive I'm actually going to) and getting prepared for OCS. Thanks for your help...

P.S. I've saved up enough money to either get my instrument rating, or aerobatics certificate (which I think would be fun). Which one do you think would be more adventageous before heading to flight school?


James

 

[Teddy]

Secondly, helo guys have a lot of difficulty finding flying jobs when they get out. If they want to fly in the airlines, they get hired by the commuters starting at $14,000 until they can build enough fixed wing time to get hired or they don't fly at all and work at a real job.

As a USMC officer candidate that hopes to fly helos I hate hearing that! I've heard (oh great, another 'I've heard') that the civilian helo market was pretty saturated the last 25 years due to the large number of helo pilots trained during Vietnam, and that this is supposedly changing. Are there really that few helo jobs out there? I'm not dying to fly for an airline, but landing a decent job after I get out is pretty important. I haven't decided for sure - jets would be great too. I suppose "needs of the Corps" will ultimately decide for me, but I'd like to know what to put on my wish list.

 

[ASUPilot]

Teddy,

If you have the good fortune of actually selecting your platform, chose Jets, Maritime Props and Helos...in that order! Unless, of course, you have a burning desire to fly helos. Despite what you feel right now, fixed-wing time will make you the most competitive candidate for a job after you separate.

ASUPilot

 

[Dave Shutter]

Frumby: In "Bogey's and Bandits" the Marine Cobra pilot got sent through the Hornet RAG, how much of that cross-training have you actually seen? Did you learn to fly Helo's on your own and or with your Dad or were you cross trained in the Corps? That's another thing that has kept me up at night thinking about the Corps, but in all honesty Navy OCS/PRT is about the most I think I can ask of my knee. 15-20 mile mountain hikes in MOPP 4 with full pack, weapon, dummy ammo and grenades and full canteens when I was eighteen was one thing but to go back for 6 months of it now...?

D

 

[Frumby]

Dave: I have seen very little, I mean specifically 3 guys in my career have been retrained to fly jets after helos. My training in helos comes from being the battalion air officer for 2nd Battalion 8th Marines. I was the liason officer for the grunts to the ACE (aviation combat element) while I was deployed on the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit. I lived and worked daily with the helo guys so I was able to bum rides in the cockpit. You can get pretty good after 6 months of bumming but my training has never been formal. Only now that I'm trying to get rated to fly the UH-34 has my training been more formal.

Teddy: I'll be honest, I had never flown a thing before I got to flight school. I was just happy to be there. I didn't give a rat's ass what I flew as long as it said Marines on the side of the bird then that was good enough for me.

Mahler: Aerobatic training would be the most fun and the kid in me is always looking for the fun. The instructor in me would advise you to work on your instrument rating. Throughout your time in flight school, instruments will weight the heaviest of all flights and simulators. It will be the deciding factor on selection from primary. You can always have fun AFTER flight school.

Semper Fi! Frumby

Attack Pilot
Major USMC

 

[Sluys]

Mahler- Just to reiterate what the Major said, when you get to primary there's blocks for both PA's (precision Aerobatics) and RI's (Radio instruments).. The PA block is 5 flights, the RI's total about 20.. lot's more grades to make.. not to mention PA's are easy.
~Rob Sluys, ENS, USNR
VT-27

 

[Jeff]

Frumby

I am currently getting underway over at VT-28 and my roommate is down there in K-ville (VT-22). My goal is to join him over there at the end of the year. Just wondering if you have any advice on how to get there?

 

[Frumby]

Jeff,
Truthfully, there is no hard fast way to get to fly jets. Most of the time it is entirely luck. The best don't always get jets even if they want them. Remember that hated phrase "Needs of the service." You will always be at its mercy. I can give you some pointers:
1. Know the course rules cold. If your in VT-28, then you will have no problems because Corpus is a snap.
2. I always carried (matter of fact, I still do) a YO-YO so that I could practice my procedures an EP's. You will hear people say study with a distraction. The Yo-yo really helped me. After you have them memorized, get into a cockpit and then touch every switch and or knob as you go through the procedures or EP's. This will create muscle memory. You will be suprised at how quickly your hands know the procedure while your tounge is twisted around your tonsils. Now you've studied the EP's, you've done the cockpit trainer, now drive around town reciting and doing the motions with your hands. Ep's and procedures have to be ingrained in your memory and it needs to be second nature. There is nothing more frustrating then watching your student flail through his procedures and stutter his EP's. This friction is know as the "Helmet Fire." The only know cure is a knee board melonectomy which entails a knee board to be hurled into the back of your melon to douse the fire. Painful yet effective.
3. I rarely went anywhere with out my study cards. I would recite them in restaurants, bars, clubs and the beach.
4.Take your NATOPS apart and reorganize them with the system foldouts in the same chapter as the associated system. I also colored the foldouts with colored pens to highlight the individual systems. ie. bleed air was pink, hyd fluid red, O2 would be blue etc. This helped me to better understand each system but to also break up the monotony of the "sleeping Pill (NATOPS)"
4. I've seen the flight sim program that the Navy is putting out, use it. Any practice is good.
5. Ask IP's if you can do back seats in FCF's, Form leads and or any other time you see an IP going flying... Ask for the back. You need air time. The more you fly, the more comfortable you become. The more comfortable, the better your procedures and the more confidence you build.
6.If you can get practice sim rides, GET THEM! Flying is not a secret, practice, practice, practice.
7. Now my final Frumbyism:
Sunday-Thursday-Study hard for at least 2 flights ahead of what you are on.
Friday-Party like a Rock Star.
Saturday-Recover, go to the beach but go out Saturday night with the squeeze you met Friday. This will ensure less of a hangover (hopefully) for Sunday.
Sunday-Like the Rifle Range "Your in your prep time!" Sleep in but then study and be prepared for Monday
I've always believed that you need a life besides being a SNA while in Flight School. Keep yourself on a leash and stay responsible. You only get 1 Shot at this school. Also, if you get to stressed out, PT. It will help your mind immensely.
8. By all means -HAVE FUN!
Ok, sorry about the length of this post. Matt and John, did I forget anything?
Obi-Wan has spoken. Semper Fi! Frumby

Attack Pilot
Major USMC

 

[webmaster]

Obi-wan is right on the money, the only thing I have to add, is use the people around you (not that way damnit!). People farther down the pipe than you can help explain a flight to you, and I never had a problem finding someone in the ready room to help me out. You also have the IPs there, if the fuel system (or whatever) is kicking your butt, then corner some IP and don't let him get away! LOL Seriously, unless the IP had a flight or meeting to get to, I NEVER had a problem getting one of them to sit down with me and go over a system, usually another IP might stumble by and I would get more than I bargained for! But lack of knowledge or misunderstanding doesn't count against you in this situation! Better to ask these questions then, and get your understanding up to speed. Even helps you to get to know more IPs, and it is amazing that they remeber that (and talk amongst themselves).

The last hidden resource are the mechs or Rathyeon (sp?) bubbas, those guys and gals are great. Take the time and go over there, and ask if anyone has the time to talk to you about (insert system), and stand back as the fur flies. I don't know about everyone else, but I am a cause and effect type of person, I have to see it, and understand the process, I can't just memorize something. So the mechs can really help you out, granted you are going to get more info than you could possible ever want, but your understanding of it will definitely increase.

Oh well, just my added two cents. But definitely, get away from the books, and go out and have fun, and drag that friend of yours that NEVER gets out, and studies 24/7 in the BOQ.