vegita1220
User
Yeah, and all us wannabes love hearing it.
Nothing like a good sea story to catch our attention...
Nothing like a good sea story to catch our attention...
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Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects
- Thread starter futrMarineBlueAngel
- Start date
FlyingFortress
Flying turd
mmx1 said:
Neither.....He's flying with his knee's.
mmx1 said:
A simple answer from a simple man:
I can't speak for this driver or this engagement, but when the opponent is on the "wrong" side of your cockpit and you are turning, grunting, straining, and twisting around to see him, keep him in sight, and/or see where he is going --- sometimes you have to switch hands on the stick to keep the high "g" turn going....
The PCL (power control lever) or whatever they call it today might be full forward at MRT --- and you leave it there --- while you switch "stick hands" to grab onto the canopy bow handle or something else with your right hand and pull/push yourself further around. Does that make sense ???
Kind of takes that option away with a side-stick controller on one side panel console instead of a stick between your legs..... ???
i was the guy flying in that video, and it was the fourth time i had ever fought an F-16 (two more times since then) and only one of those guys used the vertical, and he was a former Navy F/A-18 pilot. somewhere along the lines they started to believe 9G's across the horizon will win everytime. it's comical, especially to hear them in the debrief if it was their first time fighting a Hornet. as much fun as it is bashing the AF, i'm gonna stop ... a poorly flown Hornet can schwacked just as easy. you are spot on though about getting them into the flats (i think you referred to it as horizontal scissors) or the rolling scissors. a war story, when i was fighting that former squid F/A-18 pilot turned F-16 pilot, i got him into a Flat scissors ... i started working aft of him (higher AOA ability than the F-16) & he started climbing & flushing out in front of me ... about the time i was setting up for a shot, the dude took it over the top; he was around 180 knots. it was eye-watering ... guess ya had to be there. F-16's have a lot of power, especially when slicked off.A4sForever said:The Air Force never seems to learn -- if they do, it's the "hard way". My solution to the F-16 was always to get him slow --- and they usually did --- he was mine. If he wouldn't, I would try to extend and start over. Eventually he would fall to the seduction of the close-in rolling/turning fight. I could usually count on that and out-sicissor, rolling or horizontal, an F-16 or an F-15 to death. This isn't the first time I have seen the Air Force take a fine fighter and employ unsound tactics or fly the other guys' fight. Were you to witness what I saw over the years as a participant and an observer, they have been doing it ever since Vietnam.
Thanks for the forum "debrief", I appreciate it. .... based on what I could see (my very limited view ) you are spot on. The only thing I might (emphasis: "might" -- no g-suit here) have tried as the Hornet driver would have been to go higher/earlier (@45 deg is not very nose-hi to my way of thinking) and end it sooner. Just me .... A-4's and F-4's usually thought of 45 as the "minimum" for a hi yo-yo, but then we did not have the thrust-to-weight nor the pitch authority that these two fine birds do. Plus, I really used rudders to maximum effectiveness --- the A-4 could snap-roll/180 reverse direction (kind of hard to describe without being there) faster than anything I've ever seen with max rudder input(s) on top of a vertical move. God, I love talking about this stuff .... it's been years .....
as for going vertical, yea, more nose up would have decreased the time to kill, since the F-16 was just arcing around the horizon. Hornets have a pretty high bleed rate so i didn't want to sell all of my airspeed at the first merge because i was expecting him to do something other than what he did, at least match me nose high. we use rudders at slow speed also for rudder reversals & "pirouettes" ... the Hornet is pretty quick doing it also, especially at high alphas, and with the new FCS PROM, the risk of departing the jets is almost nil.
squadron's S-3/Ops will arrange it, then when you are on the schedule to fly, you call those guys up & coordinate/phone brief.jboomer said:
it's been answered by A4, though FlyingFortress's answer was pretty funny.mmx1 said:
i asked those dudes the same question, with a side-stick, how they look over their right shoulder ... they basically said they don't switch hands and that the recline helps.jboomer said:
at least for me, about the only thing those mirrors are good for is watch my wingman as he is joining up on me to ensure he isn't gonna hit me, or if we are flying in the goo, i can glance up from my HUD and see him "sucking LAU" (flying parade) and hasn't gotten lost in the clouds . i don't use them in BFM, it's easier just to look back.Fly Navy said:
S/F
FlyingFortress
Flying turd
RHPF said:
I could be wrong, but I think the video cam just gives it that effect due to framerate. I see it in all other cockpit videos. Kind of like how a computer monitor looks weird on video.
Will there even be a merge?
With latest generation radar and AMRAAM as well as SA derived from Link 16, many pundits are saying that there will never be a merge (or WVR fight for that matter) so SRMs like AIM-9X and are not needed nor is much emphasis on BFM or DACT.
We have been at this juncture before in beginning of 60s when F-4 was introduced with no gun and AIM-7 Sparrows as primary weapon. ACM was in disfavor then as it was thought the "dogfight" was dead. We found out differently over the skies of North Viet Nam. As a result, 4th generation fighters had greater emphasis on traits that enhanced ACM performance (better thrust-to-weight, bubble canopies, better dogfight missiles and guns and improved ACM radar modes).
This topic popped up in another thread recently and got some immediate traffic....we're talking merge with a potential threat now (MiG-29 or Su-27 variant NOT Hornet versus Hornet variant or bemoaning departure of the Tomcat). You're the CO, are you going to spend your precious OPTAR on fuel guzzling BFM/DACT training or.......
In other words, do you believe there may be merges in the future?
With latest generation radar and AMRAAM as well as SA derived from Link 16, many pundits are saying that there will never be a merge (or WVR fight for that matter) so SRMs like AIM-9X and are not needed nor is much emphasis on BFM or DACT.
We have been at this juncture before in beginning of 60s when F-4 was introduced with no gun and AIM-7 Sparrows as primary weapon. ACM was in disfavor then as it was thought the "dogfight" was dead. We found out differently over the skies of North Viet Nam. As a result, 4th generation fighters had greater emphasis on traits that enhanced ACM performance (better thrust-to-weight, bubble canopies, better dogfight missiles and guns and improved ACM radar modes).
This topic popped up in another thread recently and got some immediate traffic....we're talking merge with a potential threat now (MiG-29 or Su-27 variant NOT Hornet versus Hornet variant or bemoaning departure of the Tomcat). You're the CO, are you going to spend your precious OPTAR on fuel guzzling BFM/DACT training or.......
In other words, do you believe there may be merges in the future?