Female NFOs/Pilots

[nittany03]

My first impression is that you’re seeking attention with a question like that, and that you already knew the answer.

Well, let's be fair. We have an OP who may not have any exposure to the military other than this one "Marine buddy" who it sounds like is someone on their first enlistment. And let's not act like there aren't pockets of misogyny here and there around DoD. I don't mean to imply that all of the Lance Corporal Underground views women that way, but it does seem like the kind of "rah rah yut yut" thinking that an 18- to 23-year-old junior enlisted kid in a very, very male-dominated service might spout off because his buddy or his fire team leader swore it was true. Especially if he, his buddy, or his fire team leader got shown up by or passed over in favor of a woman and was looking for ways to rationalize this.

I'll third this, if we're counting votes. That's not to say that assholes can't be fine Marines as well.

Well . . . they can at least be Marines; we'll leave it at that.

 

[HAL Pilot]

My first impression is that you’re seeking attention with a question like that, and that you already knew the answer.

Guess I’m not really the biggest asshole on AirWarriors after all.

 

[Brett327]

Here I am with some of the finest Americans I ever got to work with. It looks like it could be a staged photo but it wasn't. It's a personal photo of me and a few of the Sailors who were kind enough to soak me after my final flight in a USN a/c. The aircraft commander for that flight happened to be the son of a US Senator. You'll meet all sorts in the services but the great majority of them are truly representative of the best America has to offer.

I'm digging that your Sailors were part of the wetting down! Great pic!

 

[Pags]

I'm digging that your Sailors were part of the wetting down! Great pic!

Yeah, it was in a word, amazing. I thought I'd already had my last flight. But, a few days before I was supposed to walk off the ship the HSC DET OIC comes up to me in tower and says, "go down to the Det spaces and meet the flight crew, we're taking you flying." I knew nothing of this nefarious plan so my jaw was on the floor. Boss says, "go have fun, SAR Boss has you station until you get bored of flying." So I go brief with the crew (crew chief was a guy I had flown with during my first tour as a bonus), we hotseat, and I get to launch off of my flight deck with my ABs giving the signals. Totally surreal. We fly around NW Australia, cloud surf, come in to the break, bounce a couple of times and I don't look like a complete clown. So I end the flight on a high note, take chocks and chains for the crew swap, and step out of the bird. As I head to the aft garage to walk in to the island I'm ambushed by a mess of my ABs with buckets of water. Totally unexpected and a huge honor to have the Sailors I'd worked so closely with do the wetting down.

Fast forward a few months and I'm checking out of the ship after being TAD ashore for a bit. I check out with the Boss (who's now XO) and head for the quarterdeck to walk off into the sunset. Unbeknownst to me the XO, nee Boss, calls down to the shops and rallies all the ABs ah the QD. As I get to the QD I see a whole bunch of ABs are lined up as sideboys. The OOD rings the bell and calls "LT, US Navy departing" over the 1MC as I walk towards the brow as the ABs salute. I come back and get a ton of handshakes, backslaps, and hugs. I then walked off the brow into a very blurry sunset.

 

[HeartofTexas]

Are there some females that try to use their looks/body to get signoffs, get out of tasks, gundeck? A few.
Are there some females who "aren't like other girls" and put on an overly masculine vibe to "compensate for being a girl in a man's world"? A few. Are there females who show up to be the best they can at their job, work hard, don't complain (as much as is normal), and still be respected for their work ethic and personality? Yes and it's the majority.

Guys (and girls) who say things like "you're either a bitch or a whore" are usually immature, tools, and/or tend to be one of the laziest gundeckers in the squadron. At some point in your career (it's almost a rite of passage for everyone), there will be some rumor about you sleeping with someone(s) else because people get bored with their own lives and love to speculate. Whether or not it's true, don't feed the trolls and know the reputation you've built for yourself will sustain you above it. Occasionally you'll get a side remark about "oh, you seem moody, you on your period?" or you'll be actively carrying something and have a guy insist on carrying it for you even though you're not having any issues. If you wonder if something said or how someone acted towards you was misogynistic/sexist, mentally replace yourself with a guy in the same situation and think if that person would react the same way. Most of the time, you'll see that it's not meant as a dig against our gender. If you're struggling with a checklist and get called out on it, it's not because you're a female, it's because you need to review your checklist more. I've seen a couple of females try to blame their own shortfalls or mistakes on sexism in the squadron when the truth is, they were subpar at their job and thus produced subpar results.

Still though, don't be afraid to ask for help if you actually need it. No-one is going to think any less of you if you're an overall solid individual. We all bring different strengths to the table and we all have areas we can improve on. Be accountable for your responsibilities, own up to your mistakes, focus on being the best in your field, and get shit done.

Just my two cents (ok, that was like a dime's worth) based on my observations and experiences as a female in the Navy for the past 5 years.

 

[GhostlySeas]

I have always worried about this. I have a few friends in all of the branches at this point, retired and active. From my experience dealing with them, the Army and the Marines struggle with this stereotype the most. My experience with men and women in the Navy is one reason why I leaned towards it as my branch. My current partner has helped me "see into" it as much as a civilian can. While he's on a submarine so it's a little different, all of his co-workers have eagerly supported me when they found out the route I've been taking and have given me a lot of advice and encouragement. Whereas, when I told my best friend (Army) and his friends I immediately was met with similar sentiments about the "you're either a bitch or a slut".

Long story short the best advice I was given: Don't be submissive and let the men walk over you. Shut down rumors and hold your own. You may have to work harder, but you'll be the one to benefit from it.

Anyway, that's just advice from someone who had the same questions as you and is in the same position.

 

[Brett327]

I agree that the Army and Marines do tend to have the worst attitudes and experiences in terms of gender issues. Act like an adult and establish expectations that others do as well. You'll do great.

 

[flgator92]

I'm graduating in August and have been studying/preparing to join the Navy - hoping to get accepted to OCS. I will take my ASTB soon and really want Aviation, but am honestly just excited in general about any potential officer position. I know that statistically the Navy and military in general is male dominated which isn't a big deal, as I've been raised with brothers and a super dominant mother my whole life. All this to say,one of my Marine buddies told me that there are only two categories of women in the military, "sluts" and "lesbians". He said that the sluts usually sleep around to get what they want, and the lesbians are just like males with vaginas. This comment really pissed me off. I was just wondering if this was a common generalization, or if my buddy is just an asshole (wouldn't surprise me). I've pushed myself hard to get where I am today, physically, mentally and educationally, and have definitely not slept around to get where I am today, so I'm not going to let my dumbass friend deter me from joining, but I guess it just got me wondering if this stereotype about women in the military was common?

For future reference- coming from someone who was in your shoes a few years ago- I think there's a more diplomatic way you can post this and still ask the question about gender stereotypes in the military. It's an important question to be asked, but a pretty explicit post. (When finding a diplomatic way to pose a question fails, asterisks *** are your friend.) I know we're the Navy ("talking like a sailor" and all), but it's a professional forum nevertheless.

 

[HeartofTexas]

For future reference- coming from someone who was in your shoes a few years ago- I think there's a more diplomatic way you can post this and still ask the question about gender stereotypes in the military. It's an important question to be asked, but a pretty explicit post. (When finding a diplomatic way to pose a question fails, asterisks *** are your friend.) I know we're the Navy ("talking like a sailor" and all), but it's a professional forum nevertheless.

What words in that post did you feel needed asterisks..?

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I have always worried about this. I have a few friends in all of the branches at this point, retired and active. From my experience dealing with them, the Army and the Marines struggle with this stereotype the most. My experience with men and women in the Navy is one reason why I leaned towards it as my branch. My current partner has helped me "see into" it as much as a civilian can. While he's on a submarine so it's a little different, all of his co-workers have eagerly supported me when they found out the route I've been taking and have given me a lot of advice and encouragement. Whereas, when I told my best friend (Army) and his friends I immediately was met with similar sentiments about the "you're either a bitch or a slut".

Long story short the best advice I was given: Don't be submissive and let the men walk over you. Shut down rumors and hold your own. You may have to work harder, but you'll be the one to benefit from it.

Anyway, that's just advice from someone who had the same questions as you and is in the same position.

When they first started putting women on carriers (nukes) and soon after followed by other rates there was this issue too and it took several years to overcome, there will always be women that are poor sailors just like there will always be men that are poor sailors, the first several groups of women nukes we rec'd it was who will get pregnant and who won't, the reason they kept saying that is about half the female nukes were getting pregnant before being on the ship for a year, maybe poor preparation in the pipeline to prepare them for sea duty, who knows. I will say after the adjustment period things changed and I had some outstanding women that worked for me.

 

[Brett327]

asterisks *** are your friend

We're all adults here... at least I think so. Curious exactly what you're objecting to here, and how replacing one or more letters of a word with an asterisk makes any difference whatsoever.

 

[HAL Pilot]

For future reference- coming from someone who was in your shoes a few years ago-

You were not in her shoes a few years ago unless you had a sex change.

Unfortunately there is a big difference between having a dick or a pussy....excuse me... d ** k or a p *** y (had to make it more professional)... in how life treats you and how you approach life. In some ways the difference is much greater in the military than in most professions.

 

[flgator92]

We're all adults here... at least I think so. Curious exactly what you're objecting to here, and how replacing one or more letters of a word with an asterisk makes any difference whatsoever.

You were not in her shoes a few years ago unless you had a sex change.

Unfortunately there is a big difference between having a dick or a pussy....excuse me... d ** k or a p *** y (had to make it more professional)... in how life treats you and how you approach life. In some ways the difference is much greater in the military than in most professions.

Alright. Thanks for the advice. I’ll go all up and down the hall at the VTs and talk about sluts, dicks, and pussies. I’m sure the instructor cadre will commend me for my professionalism. When you’re in the fleet, I’m sure it’s different. Not at a training command and not for some prospective candidate on a professional forum.

My point was there’s a proper and professional way to pose the question, like, for instance: I have some questions on gender and service in the military. As a woman, I’ve heard negative stereotypes about females serving in the military blah blah blah tell me more about your experiences. No mention of sluts, pussies, etc.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Okay I won't mention sluts, pussies and dicks again.

But I will say you are an asshat...

Wait...why am I lying...I'll mention sluts, pussies and dicks again if I feel like it.

 

[flgator92]

But I will say you are an asshat...

I finally got called an ass by HAL. I feel kinda warm and fuzzy inside that my stupidity finally made it onto his scope.