F-35B/C Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter)

[usmarinemike]

Purely, no, but we are planning on buying a shitton of EFV's at a ridiculous price for that capability.

I'm with you. We need a mechanized infantry ride that floats and the AAV-7s are getting old and outdated, but DAMN!


(Can also be read with "mechanized infantry ride that floats" = "jet that jumps" and "AAV-7" = "AV8B")

 

[Lawman]

First, this isn't a Navy/Marine Corp vs. Army thing, nor is it a Helo vs. FW thing. What it is though is a discussion on how we get the Marines on the ground the support they need in a timely manner. It's obvious that the Corp thought they needed the FW assets in the first place since they have them now, and need to replace them. It's obvious that the RW guys can't provide all of the support that the MEU requires or it would just be Helos on the small decks in the first place. If you think that you can see the same thing from 200' as I can see from 15k', then you a bit of learning to do. I know for sure that I can't see what a helo on the deck can see. I know what I can provide to a fight, and I also know what the RW guys bring as well. You have no idea of any of the programs that you are speaking to. That fact is, there needs to be a solution to the F-35 problem. The MEU needs FW but if that can't be done with the current plan, then something else needs to be done.

Hang on, your over reading my original statement a little.

Ive got no problem knowing that there are things You guys provide that we cant provide. My Statement was what does the _________________. Its not a fixed wing high performance Jet, its a light weight turbo prop with a very limited amount of pylons. It is not the vaunted A1 Skyraider people seem to want to think of it as, and we are not flying in the same era as the A1 Skyraider.

 

[jarhead]

Right... the most requested air asset by ground commanders in theatre right now is an Army Helicopter...

you must mean "Army ground commanders" because that's definitely not the case for Marines in theater.

 

[Flash]

Right... the most requested air asset by ground commanders in theatre right now is an Army Helicopter but we dont know what we're doing......You keep saying experienced operators, experienced in what standpoint. We lost Broncos in Desert Storm to SAFIRE flying what is essentially the exact same mission you intend to do with this aircraft.[/B] Will it do a good job within the limited and very specific function of SOCOM, sure. Im saying buying these up by the thousands the way we did with MRAPs to fill some niche we designed strictly out of this fight is foolish. Outside of operating in areas where you simply cant get a R/W too either due to range or altitude there is nothing this aircraft will do better than we can.

SOCOM wanted an asset and decided on a solution crewed by aviators with the required experience, they turned to a fixed-wing aircraft with experienced fixed-wing aviators. That turned out to be the Super Tucano and Naval Aviators, I think with some USAF guys in the mix too. If rotary wing was the solution they could have easily turned to the 160th but they didn't, since that wasn't what was needed. End of story. Your comparison to the OV-10D's in Desert Storm shows how little you realize that newer sensors and weapons have changed the game for an asset like that, making them much more survivable and lethal. Nothing else in the US military can bring as much ordnance as quickly to the fight as fixed-wing attack/bomber aircraft and the A-29 was supposed to be a tool to help getting that ordnance get to the guys that need it. No one is saying we need to buy a bunch of them, just a few to fill a niche for a particular mission at a pretty low cost.

To get the thread back on track, the F-35 is the one fixed-wing combat aircraft that makes sense for the the USMC to buy. It fits most of their needs, it is even planned to fit in EA sooner or later, and since the Marines aren't about buying specialized aircraft for everything it is the one that can fulfill the combat role the best. I think the mix of F-35B/C will be a political one will ultimately be made at the Secretary and Congressional levels.

 

[Fog]

SOCOM wanted an asset and decided on a solution crewed by aviators with the required experience, they turned to a fixed-wing aircraft with experienced fixed-wing aviators. That turned out to be the Super Tucano and Naval Aviators, I think with some USAF guys in the mix too. If rotary wing was the solution they could have easily turned to the 160th but they didn't, since that wasn't what was needed. End of story. Your comparison to the OV-10D's in Desert Storm shows how little you realize that newer sensors and weapons have changed the game for an asset like that, making them much more survivable and lethal. Nothing else in the US military can bring as much ordnance as quickly to the fight as fixed-wing attack/bomber aircraft and the A-29 was supposed to be a tool to help getting that ordnance get to the guys that need it. No one is saying we need to buy a bunch of them, just a few to fill a niche for a particular mission at a pretty low cost.

To get the thread back on track, the F-35 is the one fixed-wing combat aircraft that makes sense for the the USMC to buy. It fits most of their needs, it is even planned to fit in EA sooner or later, and since the Marines aren't about buying specialized aircraft for everything it is the one that can fulfill the combat role the best. I think the mix of F-35B/C will be a political one will ultimately be made at the Secretary and Congressional levels.

Hell, do what the Aussies did: get the F-18F w/ the EA-18 wiring pre-installed. That's ready today & being delivered to Australia for ~ $50MM per copy. Why wait 5-8 yrs for a $175MM F-35 that might get built. Maybe the USMC needs 100 F-35Bs, but they sure as hell don't need 370 or whatever and can hardly afford the 1st 100. The Super Hornet would last them another 30 years at the least.

 

[Swanee]

Hell, do what the Aussies did: get the F-18F w/ the EA-18 wiring pre-installed. That's ready today & being delivered to Australia for ~ $50MM per copy. Why wait 5-8 yrs for a $175MM F-35 that might get built. Maybe the USMC needs 100 F-35Bs, but they sure a hell don't need 370 or whatever and can hardly afford the 1st 100. The Super Hornet would last them another 30 years at the least.

Right, but the USMC wants it all off of an LHA/LHD, not a carrier. That is the major issue here. It has to do that job, AND do it from an amphib...

 

[eas7888]

You could just operate these, and arm the pilots with bottle rockets. If nothing else, you'd laugh the enemy in to submission.

 

[Fog]

Right, but the USMC wants it all off of an LHA/LHD, not a carrier. That is the major issue here. It has to do that job, AND do it from an amphib...

The Marines right now have about 100 Harriers & 200+ F-18A-Ds. Why not buy 100 F-35Bs & ~ 200 F/A-18Es & Fs? 1 for 1 & gets them manned FW air for another 30-40 years? That's my point, if I have one.

 

[Swanee]

The Marines right now have about 100 Harriers & 200+ F-18A-Ds. Why not buy 100 F-35Bs & ~ 200 F/A-18Es & Fs? 1 for 1 & gets them manned FW air for another 30-40 years? That's my point, if I have one.

That would make sense. I'd say plus those numbers up a bit for attrition, as we are bound to break a few over the years.

It's going to boil down to whether or not we (as a Marine Corps) want to continue to have a presence on the carrier. It will be interesting to see what happens with the Commandant being a Hornet guy and all.

 

[eddie]

Arguing for the need to have a stealth capability is one thing. Arguing for the need to have fixed wing attack/fighter is another absurd thing altogether.

Stupid question:

What was more important to the Marine Corps' adoption of a STOVL fixed wing attack craft: a) the ability to operate off amphibious ships, or b) the ability to operate on short / unimproved airfields ashore?

 

[Pugs]

Right, but the USMC wants it all off of an LHA/LHD, not a carrier. That is the major issue here. It has to do that job, AND do it from an amphib...

And having a max of 10 JSF's per boat is worth how much to the Navy/USMC/US Government compared to having 10 more tilt/help types? No one can deny that a fixed wing fast mover is valuable on the LPD/LPH platform but the cost of having this unique requirement is getting pretty high.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Stupid question:

What was more important to the Marine Corps' adoption of a STOVL fixed wing attack craft: a) the ability to operate off amphibious ships, or b) the ability to operate on short / unimproved airfields ashore?

The talking points is about expeditionary employment. The reality is all about the MEU.

My opinion only.

 

[1rotorhead]

Hope they figure out a way to get spare engines on board: http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/11/navy-jsf-engine-too-big-112910w/

 

[pourts]

Stick a few laser guided 2.75in/70mm rockets on a plane and you won't have to worry as much about lining up as much.

By the way, Rhinos cannot carry any flavor of rockets. I know Flash wasn't writing about the rhino, but just thought I would throw that out there. I am assuming the JSF won't have jacked up pylons and will be able to carry anything.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Why no rockets on rhinos? Harriers can, and I've seen hornets with them