Even a blind Apache pilot can see at night

[Lawman]

Just caught this...

....and yes it can be a pain in the ass. Especially for newer co-pilots.

What you described is exactly what legacy Cobra pilots have been doing since forever. Newer Whiskeys w/ HDTS birds and Zulus can cue based off a LOS from the DDM/NDM (our version of HMDs) and put the TSS/NTSU FLIR and/or turret in the vicinity of the target/contact. Those systems also allow for more accurate boresighting compared to the previous mechanical HSS installed on old Whiskey Cobras. Which was never guaranteed to work, was inaccurate, and generally a pain in the ass to use. We don't use the FLIR to fly form either. The old whiskey HSS rail attached to the canopy however is a great tool to hit the front seater in the head with if he's being a jackass. Technique only. As you can see the Cobra while much sexier than the F models the Army flew into the 90s, it is an abortion of collected and retrofitted systems smashed into an airframe. While it may have saved money in the short term, it is no where near what the Y/Z H-1s or E model Apaches can do with the integration of their systems.

This is the reason that until the E model we never wanted to be the guy to sparkle or rope anything. I have no magnification because the IZLID is mounted on the gun. The gun automatically elevates for range.... so the IZLID is never where the TADS is looking. The E model fixes that finally and talk is that an eventual software upgrade will do it in the D as well so that we get accurate IZLID aligned to the TADS boresight. It will even allow me to do partial interrupt and shoot where it blanks the laser and adjusts for range to fire then comes back to alignment and laser on.

 

[Hotdogs]

The key difference being, in the Cobra the pilot (though maybe not the front seater) will fly with your goggles on most of the time at night, no?

Both Whiskey pilots are on goggles and the front seater is the only one with an MFD to view FLIR imagery, so it's an additional asset he uses. Obviously CRM is big here because the rear seat pilot can't see the FLIR, and in low light level conditions sometimes only the front seater will be able to get PID and have to talk the rear seater on. Which goes back to system design because the only cueing the rear seat pilot gets on Legacy Cobras is a cursor inside the HUD but it doesn't go the full 95/90 degree left and right like the FLIR does. The HDTS and HMSDs on the Zulus and Whiskey+ can cue each pilot to multiple cursors representing Gun and FLIR azimuth, pilot and co-pilot LOS. IZLIDs on Zulus and Whiskeys are not included in the boresight for our systems, so it's pretty much look and point with goggles. Obviously easier for us because we fly on goggles at night 100% of the time. As for shooting it's typically watching tracer impacts and walking the rounds on. Mil dispersion is not that bad on the Cobra with a good boresight and stable platform, which isn't surprising because it's a higher velocity round than the 30mm, but doesn't pack as much punch, and makes up for it in volume.

 

[Coota0]

Both Whiskey pilots are on goggles and the front seater is the only one with an MFD to view FLIR imagery, so it's an additional asset he uses. Obviously CRM is big here because the rear seat pilot can't see the FLIR, and in low light level conditions sometimes only the front seater will be able to get PID and have to talk the rear seater on. Which goes back to system design because the only cueing the rear seat pilot gets on Legacy Cobras is a cursor inside the HUD but it doesn't go the full 95/90 degree left and right like the FLIR does. The HDTS and HMSDs on the Zulus and Whiskey+ can cue each pilot to multiple cursors representing Gun and FLIR azimuth, pilot and co-pilot LOS. IZLIDs on Zulus and Whiskeys are not included in the boresight for our systems, so it's pretty much look and point with goggles. Obviously easier for us because we fly on goggles at night 100% of the time. As for shooting it's typically watching tracer impacts and walking the rounds on. Mil dispersion is not that bad on the Cobra with a good boresight and stable platform, which isn't surprising because it's a higher velocity round than the 30mm, but doesn't pack as much punch, and makes up for it in volume.

Interesting, I had no idea that the Whiskyes functioned in that manner. It's surprisingly similar to the way we operate.

This is the reason that until the E model we never wanted to be the guy to sparkle or rope anything. I have no magnification because the IZLID is mounted on the gun. The gun automatically elevates for range.... so the IZLID is never where the TADS is looking.

That explains some pink team requests.

 

[Lawman]

For the Cobras...

1. Are you getting or do you have a laser spot tracker? We use the crap out of it for handovers though our new data link ability you don't need it.

2. Lacking that can you slave your sensor LOS to a grid and altitude like we can?

3. Can you pass a grid digitally and save it directly I to your Nav system?

Curious for the next time I work with or plan with you guy.

 

[Hotdogs]

For the Cobras...

1. Are you getting or do you have a laser spot tracker? We use the crap out of it for handovers though our new data link ability you don't need it.

2. Lacking that can you slave your sensor LOS to a grid and altitude like we can?

3. Can you pass a grid digitally and save it directly I to your Nav system?

Curious for the next time I work with or plan with you guy.

1. LST Not yet - rumored to be in the works for upgrades.

2. Yes, but in a round about way. Uses present EGI position to calculate a solution based off of altitude, and direction to the grid. Its not extremely accurate but it will get you in the ballpark. Obviously you're fubar if your system health is jacked.

3. Nope. Also an oft spoken about capability for the future. We have to hand-jam everything.

 

[Lawman]

*Break Break*

Any Cobra or Huey guys with APKWS experience, I need to have a conversation with you off line. The Phil AF is acquiring the system for use on their AW109s and they need a whole mess of laser/weapons operational procedures SMEEs before they try and use this thing at Balakatan next spring.

 

[zab1001]

Lawman, check your PMs.

 

[pourts]

For the Cobras...

1. Are you getting or do you have a laser spot tracker? We use the crap out of it for handovers though our new data link ability you don't need it.

2. Lacking that can you slave your sensor LOS to a grid and altitude like we can?

3. Can you pass a grid digitally and save it directly I to your Nav system?

Curious for the next time I work with or plan with you guy.

I missed this when originally posted because I was on the boat.

What new datalink capability are you talking about? Is it datalink only between Apaches? Or is it Link-16?

Also, do Apache's have the capability to do DCS? If so, how often do you guys useit? For reference, we set up our radios for DCS on almost every flight in the Hornet, though I only used it on maybe 10 flights or less in 3 years. One of those flights was out at WTI, and the rest were doing AR with another Hornet section and passing target locations, not full 9-lines.

 

[Lawman]

I missed this when originally posted because I was on the boat.

What new datalink capability are you talking about? Is it datalink only between Apaches? Or is it Link-16?

Also, do Apache's have the capability to do DCS? If so, how often do you guys useit? For reference, we set up our radios for DCS on almost every flight in the Hornet, though I only used it on maybe 10 flights or less in 3 years. One of those flights was out at WTI, and the rest were doing AR with another Hornet section and passing target locations, not full 9-lines.

So at current we have 3 different datalinks installed with a 4th being fielded in our next Lot upgrade due out this summer.

1. Longbow Net. Essentially this is a 64 specific data network that can be set up on any of my 5 radios. Allows me to pass text messages, targets and control measures with all the meta data, etc. But it is limited in the total number of participants you can have set up because the idea was that it is internal to an 8 ship company. Its also good for mission data if you have a load fail off a data card so you can send routes, maps, etc. Usually we will have this on our internal freq just because its always in use and that keeps from having to retune it after freq changes. I can also set up multiple nets so I can break up teams to be on their own radio and then have the Mission Commander monitoring all.

2. BFT. Exactly what the ground system does only in the air.

3. Our new Rover 6 compliant Uplink/downlink. Now we can all pass video down to a ground station and 3 of our aircraft in an 8 ship company are configured to receive video from other players (UAV, Bone, etc) and then use its downlink to distribute that to the flight. Nobody was thrilled about the idea of having the TOC able to screenwatch me on mission, but its not all bad. It also is what allows us to do meta data transfer flight internal even without sending raw video, so I can get constant position updates on the rest of the flight and I can use the data as an acquisition source so I can see where my wingman is looking and slave to it without having to be able to see his laser for a spot handover.

4. Link-16. Its been field tested in the E model and its set to come on line this summer. It will not completely replace any of the previous systems so we will now have 4 separate ways to F the chicken.

 

[pourts]

Rover 6...
I guess L3 didn't get the memo about making shit smaller and lighter. Sounds like an awesome capability to have inside the aircraft though.

Link 16...
Interesting...

Wish I was in your community. It sounds like you guys have money for everything. Did you have any funding requests that the Pentagon turned down? Please don't tell me you also have a civilian ILS inside too. ;-)

On a side note, where do you guys find empty panels in the aircraft to install all this random crap? Can you still carry a bag on a cross country?

 

[Lawman]

Everything the users in the community want (IR pointer integration into FLIR, 30mm air burst, multi warhead missile, etc) has been pushed back over and over again.

What we got paid to get was an instrument suite (full ILS... But no GPS) and all the ways to get people involved in the decision making I should be doing myself. Instruments and Link 16 are strictly E model mods, and there are only about 60 of those in the fleet right now. Upgrades spread to 2021.

And luckily when they built the A model there were bays that were literally empty for the purpose of carrying your stuff. Now... Well your not supposed to put things in the tail boom but I won't lie to you and say I've never seen stuff put there. It's still a 3 day bag no more. Usually your stuff is on a truck and God help you if it doesn't show up at the right field site. Old guys talk about the left aft bay being perfect for two alice packs. Now you'd be lucky to get a sleeping bag back there.

 

[Hotdogs]

30mm air burst

Ridiculous. (In a good way)

 

[Lawman]

Ridiculous. (In a good way)

They've done test fires of the system.... Awesome doesn't even begin to cover it.

Ridiculous. (In a good way)

The little lethality butterfly charts were just sick. If they could give us that, and change our Target State Estimator to using GPS derived altitude or height above ellipsoid instead of a flat earth model that gun would be just short of the Martian War of the Worlds death ray in lethality.

 

[pourts]

They've done test fires of the system.... Awesome doesn't even begin to cover it.


The little lethality butterfly charts were just sick. If they could give us that, and change our Target State Estimator to using GPS derived altitude or height above ellipsoid instead of a flat earth model that gun would be just short of the Martian War of the Worlds death ray in lethality.

One thing I would like to see is some kind of flechette APKWS or flechette hellfire.

 

[Lawman]

One thing I would like to see is some kind of flechette APKWS or flechette hellfire.

I just want my MPSMs back. I dont care if they do produce duds, the damn things worked.

And a longer range missile. Hellfire is having the same problem TOW did when the Radar directed AAA started showing up on the battlefield. It just hasnt got the reach we are gonna need when we start fighting anybody that doesnt wear a man dress to the fight.