I'm a VP bubba, and even I think you're a douche for writing this.
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Deployment video causing heat for Enterprise Skipper
- Thread starter HercDriver
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I'm a VP bubba, and even I think you're a douche for writing this.
Not sure exactly where you got this from what I posted. You compared the military to the corporate world. I told you that was as dumb as comparing our society to that of European countries. At no point in my post did I indicate whether or not I thought it was a good idea - I used the topic as an example.
After 3,115 posts I would have thought you had figured out the "don't post angry" concept - when you do that you tend to miss the entire point.
You think Big Navy would've just stood up for Capt Honors if this happened in the previous administration? I doubt it.
Again, you (and others) can look for blame on your ususal boogeymen (political correctness/gays/liberals/Obama), but it's simple. No one wants to stand up and spend political capital on a senior officer making a lewd video...it's much easier to fire people, politically speaking, as it shows you take the scandal seriously.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
On another totally unrelated threadjack note, I gotta do something with my cube... That looks downright barren...
Wow
So when do we get these "pearls" your avatar references ...
Typically, you make the "what would the last administration have done?" argument. My comments are broad and absent of partisanship - you will have to point out to me how I've noted any differences between this administration and those in the past. Don't waste your time - I've not. You can "speak"/write down to me, as you do many others who disagree with you, but the fact remains: the effectiveness of our military has been and will continue to be eroded by efforts to make everyone feel special about themselves. Its a different lifestyle, its a different organization, its a different set of values. Believing this does not make me a knuckle dragging neanderthal - as much as you would like to believe.
Civilian leadership should proceed cautiously. Asking me to act more professionally and maturely might just make me reconsider the sense in eight months of night traps. Its the unique and exclusive culture that keeps it enjoyable. Ask just about any retired aviator what they miss most - typically they miss the ready room camaraderie more than the flying. When the camaraderie piece has been removed through the pussification of a ready room - really, what's left?
Or we could all join the CG and live happily ever after.
I think we're in total agreement about the ready-room banter and camaraderie that develops among folks who spend day and night together for 8 months at sea, or flying together in really difficult circumstances, or doing things that NO ONE else can relate to but each other. I GET that. I think the only disconnect between my point of view and yours is that I think that that line is drawn at the door to the ready room/wardroom. It's all about knowing the audience as I've said before.
You are always going to act a little bit differently in front of different groups of people. And while you may detest the "professional" line I'm trying to draw, isn't that sort of a requirement of any officer? It seems a bit of a detriment to good order and discipline when the CO puts out the video he did with same sex sailors playing tummy sticks in the shower, and throwing around discriminatory language. This is the same Officer who hands out NJP at Captain's mast, etc. Hard to do that when you've put yourself out there in such a compromising way. Same way a JO loses respect for being seen in town puking or passed out at the bar, then later counsels an airman for an ARI.
Bottom line: unfortunately the Captain wanted to do a nice thing for his sailors to maintain morale. He didn't think about the lowest common denominator who might take offense. He let his guard down and was a little lax in front of EVERYONE, which is a gamble as a high-ranking officer. Someone took offense. Bottom line, the vid was a mistake. The ISSUE is that it took years before it became a "problem". So either the video had tacit approval, brass was covering up 4 years ago, or they are throwing him to the wolves now. This didn't take 4 years to come about. It got out, and now the public demands satisfaction.
No matter how you slice it, the Captain is FAR from the only one at fault here.
Nope. Nowhere did I point to what this or an earlier administration would do; I talk about what what the Navy would do. The actions of Big Navy in removing him were based on not wanting the scandal to fester (IMO), and not on any particular administration.
Really? Broad?
"Current administration" would be specific, not broad, by my standards.129 Paddles earlier post said:
If it sounds like I was writing down to you, I apologize...that honestly hasn't been my intent. And my "usual boogeyman" comment was more on how folks place the blame on things they feel are eroding the military (or American) culture rather than on any facts.
Anywho, my point still stands...I see scandal, and the Navy doing everything they can to get rid of the scandal (because most Gov't organizations are scandal averse). You see this somehow relates people being made to feel special about themselves (?) and a different set of values (looser or stronger values???), and the usual fears about change. I'm a simple guy and look for the simplest answer, cause it is usually right (and no, no one said you were a neanderthal, BTW).
Not making videos with masturbation/scatological humor = pussification of ready room? Really? I think you'll keep the cameraderie without all of that.
And saying if you are asked to be professional and mature it will make you take your ball and go home? That seems like you don't take your job seriously.
Get in line...there are always too many former Navy/Marine Corps/Army/Air Force guys trying to get in than we have slots for. I can try to put in a good word for you, but I can't promise anything.
Kaman
Beech 1900 pilot's; "Fly it like you stole it"
I had to laugh when I heard on the news that the Navy was going to fund purchases of Video games for the ship's company! Seriously? I don't ever recall that a Playstation ever really was a big motivator for being a better performer. Would really love to know who the tool was that leaked this video in the first place...I guess he forgot the FIRST rule of deployments...What happens at-sea, STAYS at-sea...Not liking this "new" military very much...
What color is the sky in your world...?
To make my point a little more clearly, and you still might not be able to relate: if you take a ready room full of young dudes who have volunteered to do some crazy dangerous shit for lousy pay, and are away from home for months at a time - and then ask them to say please, thank you, shoot instead of shit, darn it instead of fuck, and roll Nat Geo documentaries for roll'ems - dudes are gonna start taking long hard looks at the value of staying in.
This may come as a shock to you, but a lot of us are not so enamored with the "work" side of this job that we wouldn't consider leaving. Go scroll through any number of threads on this website and you'll find guys weighing their options because of low job satisfaction, pay, decreasing benefits, deployments, fitrep 500, shitty spineless leadership, etc... For a large chunk of Naval Aviators below the rank of O-5, its is the camaraderie and ready room life that keeps the job unique and enjoyable. Its a big part of what keeps dudes putting on the green pajamas instead of a shirt and tie. The O-4 > 10 pay isn't making the night traps worth it - and if leadership continues to take the enjoyable parts of this job away, they'll have less people they need to worry about paying.
So you stay in your ivory tower and look down your nose at rest of us with our "immature and scatological behavior".
I take this job very seriously.
smiley face inserted to make everyone feel happy
Let's make a distinction here between the behavior that CAPT Honors was relieved for and the behavior that you are worried is threatened, as described above.
CAPT Honors was a senior officer in a position of great responsibility, who in his official capacity as XO of a CVN used Navy resources to distribute material of questionable taste to every person on his ship, from O-7 all the way down to the newest boot. In doing so, he compromised his ability to be an effective leader.
Junior officers pulling shenanigans in a ready room among themselves is not an issue. I don't see how anyone could reasonably expect that the Navy's actions against CAPT Honors mean an end to the typical JO stuff that goes on day in and day out.
That's a valid prediction. However, even with the CAPT Honors affair, I don't think that we're anywhere near the tipping point yet. A couple of reasons for this:
1) What I've seen. Probably every VP JO at some point says to him/herself (or even out loud), "This is the shittiest job ever. No way I'm coming back." And while we don't have to deal with carrier deployments, we also don't get alot of the "mission accomplished" satisfaction that comes from actually fighting a war. And yet there are still guys lining up to be department heads.
2) Lots of people waiting in the wings. Are they still weeding them out with higher test-score cutoffs at API? That's a pipeline that can easily open up again.
3) I read a WaPo article a few years back about the impact that free PRK is having at the Naval Academy. All the smart guys who before would have been NPQ for aviator due to eyesight and would have been pushed to other communities now have the opportunity to fly. Ergo, lots more talented competition for aviation slots (the article mentioned that the biggest negative impact was on the sub community). I don't have first-hand knowledge of this, but it makes sense and is somewhat confirmed, again, by tighter cutoffs at API, etc...
4) A detailer at a brief I attended showed a pie chart with percentages of staff jobs filled by different communities. Aviation was far and away leading the pack (I don't remember the exact percentages, but I do remember that we greatly exceeded our quota), meaning, among other things, that aviators are staying in (detailer's interpretation).
5) (This one's gonna hurt a little bit, but truth often does) Big Navy just replaced a CVN CO within weeks of a deployment and the carrier still went. And will likely have a "successful" deployment, because no matter how much people grumble and bitch, they're still professionals who are going to do their job. If they can replace a CVN CO, they can replace you.
6) Bottom line, there's no Naval Aviators Union and it comes down to the individuals. Most might not like what happened to CAPT Honors/the long slow trend of PCness, but my prediction is that most guys, when forced to choose between gay jokes and the $3+ million in pension benefits/healthcare for the rest of your life, will decide that they can indeed say please and thank you. And for the ones who can't, there's no shortage of replacements. Might there be a drop-off in quality? Maybe...but even if that happened, it wouldn't be noticed for a decade and the Navy probably won't come knocking on your door, hat in hand, begging forgiveness and asking you to bring your badassery back to the fleet.
You mean day in and day out stuff like the callsign "Master?"
Post is spot on. Good post. I voted with my feet when Mom Navy decided to put split tails on ships, thought the Navy would die without me. Navy never did call back, but my Command gave me a job next day as a consultant, 4 times previous pay of course, less duties, but same desk to drive down the road.
One quibble, $3 million in bennies? Would not be too sure of that, lots of changes are in the wind, some significant changes already made while folks not watching. One biggie; Health Care for Life. that is already gone. Retirees over 65 yo can no longer use militiary health care facilities unless they have Medicare Part B. That costs me $366 month, as I understand the new rates. TFL will be the same. While $4 grand a year is not a deal breaker, it does buy less Jack Daniels. However, if you are at or below the poverty line, income wise, yours will be free.
Oh, and forgot to mention UCAV's. Rumor on the street; both the Enterprise and Nimitz will be gone within 3 years. Far sooner that expected, no? Small Deck phraseology keeps popping up.
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