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Congress OKs Va Tech-inspired gun bill

magnetfreezer

Well-Known Member
Funny thing is, the Illinois Bill of Rights has a copy of the US 2nd Ammendment...and right now Cook County (Chicago) is trying to ban firearms period. Apparently a Constitution doesn't mean anything to lower governments i.e. DC, Chicago, etc.

All the dead people voting in Chicago and Jesse Jackson make it almost impossible to change the city government - if store owners could carry handguns, it would increase the risk to mafia thugs coming around for the protection money...

Illinois Bill of Rights said:
Subject only to the police power, the right of the
individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be
infringed

Leaving the "subject to police power" in is their way of saying, "we honor the 2nd amendment unless we don't feel like it and pass a law using our legislative powers".
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Words, also, are not exclusively used for violent means (which may explain, in contrast, much of the reactionism to firearms).

Eddie, I am disappointed in you. You are smarter than this statement, as only someone who is ignorant and believes everything the media and movies tell them would state this. Tell me how my 15 legally owned firearms are used exclusively for violent means? I'll give you a head start, they've never been used to kill anyone or anything.
 

Steve Wilkins

Teaching pigs to dance, one pig at a time.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Granted that does suck, but by the same token what if Chicago passed a law which said you couldnt be Christian, or you couldnt be a Muslim. This would violate the 1st Ammendment. If you would object to 1st Ammendment violations how do you justify not objecting to 2nd Ammendment violations.

Not trying to be accusitory, just trying to understand the your thought process.
It is probably best if you don't try to understand my thought process. I use a process that is proprietary and do not wish others to be enlightened by the secrets I employ. Rather, I strongly urge that you to focus your efforts on understanding the logic that results from this process.

I wasn't justifying the actions of Chicago. I was simply stating that it would suck if Chicago residents didn't stand up against such a measure. I object to any measure not supported by the Constitution that limits or denies me of personal freedoms.
 

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
At the most basic level a gun is designed to move a metal projectile in a relatively straight line at a hight rate of speed through the use of chemical energy stored in a propellent. Nothing more.

For what purposes? Killing people and animals, plinking targets, making fun noises. All find and dandy as far as I'm concerned, but associated fairly closely with violence? Yes; see below for details.

Let me rephrase my older post: I simply cannot believe that words from the wrong mouth are definitionally MORE dangerous than a firearm in the wrong hands. They are dangerous in different ways, and for very different reasons. Again, I have to ask, how are dangerous words empowered?

Eddie, I am disappointed in you. You are smarter than this statement, as only someone who is ignorant and believes everything the media and movies tell them would state this. Tell me how my 15 legally owned firearms are used exclusively for violent means? I'll give you a head start, they've never been used to kill anyone or anything.

Firearms were invented to kill people. At some later date they started to be used for hunting, and then target shooting. Eventually people started collections.

You are correct, I cannot prove, or hope to claim that ALL firearms, especially those privately owned, are procured in order to cause harm. My bad.

But I can make a pretty good guess that if we lived in a sunshine daisy world, nobody would have invented guns. There are an increasing number of people who can live most, if not their entire lives in something close to that world in this country. They see defensive firearms as a stain upon their attempts to perfect this existance (and many of them see hunting as an archaic, wasteful, and inhumane, and would gladly see that go too).

They believe that firearms are inherently destructive and evil, just as you believe that restriction of possession will ultimately erode and destroy the freedoms this nation possesses (and don't let me put words in your mouth!). For the most part, they cannot imagine how putting more firearms in the hands of individuals could actually reduce crime and death. Firearms in the home evoke images of children killing themselves: simply the idea of having something so potentially dangerous in the same room with their child is repulsive and totally unacceptable.

Of course, you know all of this, and you are correct to label it all as ignorance and ultimately mis-directed.

This is just how I see it.

When somebody says, "Guns are simply tools," they immediately force the segment of the population they need to communicate with the most to shut their ears and scoff. They see it is as an over-simplification and purposefully dishonest. It is a correct and logical statment, but I just don't see it as reasonable or practicle in the long run. For me, a better thing to say might be along the lines of, "You are afraid of your children hurting themselves? That's why I've educated my children since early childhood about guns; takes the mystery out of it, actually keeps them safer." Or, "I suppose it's a remote possibility that someone will break into my house and threaten my family, but I'd just rather be safe than sorry on this one. Police can't be everywhere at once..." You've got to give them substance to hold on to, not just guns =\= evil, QED.

Jumping up and down and pointing at the 2nd Amendment doesn't work with these people either; they certainly aren't strict Constitutionalists. And we can try and find blame for all of this stuff, but honestly, I don't think it's nearly as important as just stopping the bleeding on this one. I don't even know if it can be done through official channels (school systems) anymore given the bias mounting against firearms. Handgun ownership in this country might already be in the embrace of the black hole; I just don't know.

I've actually changed a couple minds on this, and I don't even own a gun yet (no money, no time to learn properly, and no will to fight my school or mother on storage space :)). My father finally said one day to me, "Guns scare me. But I think they are prevalent enough in our society that everybody ought to know something about them so at least you understand and can be safer around them. If any of you guys want to learn to shoot, we'll do it."

Having been "one of them," for quite a good while, I think it is important to make "them" view the firearm-owning community as more than just a bunch of gun nuts. I don't want to be so pretentious as to try and tell anyone how to win this fight, but think I've got a fairly good idea of what matters to the opposition, is all.
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Again, I have to ask, how are dangerous words empowered?

Case in point, Adolf Hitler. He didn't lead his country into Naziism with JUST guns (sure, they helped for some points), most people were swayed and swooned by his speeches and leadership.

Firearms were invented to kill people. At some later date they started to be used for hunting, and then target shooting. Eventually people started collections.

Who cares what they were invented for, the fact of the matter is most guns in the USA are NOT used for violent purposes. Original intent has nothing to do with anything... look at how many peaceful devices have been converted to "violent" tools.

But I can make a pretty good guess that if we lived in a sunshine daisy world, nobody would have invented guns.

And that world can not and will not ever exist. Leftists can't seem to figure that out, it's just human nature, we'll NEVER get along.

There are an increasing number of people who can live most, if not their entire lives in something close to that world in this country. They see defensive firearms as a stain upon their attempts to perfect this existance (and many of them see hunting as an archaic, wasteful, and inhumane, and would gladly see that go too).

These are the same people that had their head in the sand and were surprised that 9/11 ever happened and that people in the world hated us and want us to die. These people are wearing blinders.

"You are afraid of your children hurting themselves? That's why I've educated my children since early childhood about guns; takes the mystery out of it, actually keeps them safer." Or, "I suppose it's a remote possibility that someone will break into my house and threaten my family, but I'd just rather be safe than sorry on this one. Police can't be everywhere at once..." You've got to give them substance to hold on to, not just guns =\= evil, QED.

Education is the reason we have such problems with firearms in the country to this day. Or should I say lack of education. Firearms used to be much more common in our society, and the problems we have today were not there... kids didn't shoot up schools on a monthly basis. All our education today comes from movies and TV and video games... this is destructive. Most people in the Navy, a military force, don't know crap about firearms. Neither do the police. That is a sad state. And we wonder why people are ignorant?

Handgun ownership in this country might already be in the embrace of the black hole; I just don't know.
Nearly all of the 50 states allow concealed carry of handguns... 15 years ago this was not the case. Most states are not like CA, MA, DC, and IL, they are much more free with firearms ownership. There are many myths of gun ownership that are propogated by people who live in places such as CA (how many times have I been asked if my guns are registered).

My father finally said one day to me, "Guns scare me. But I think they are prevalent enough in our society that everybody ought to know something about them so at least you understand and can be safer around them. If any of you guys want to learn to shoot, we'll do it."

He's a smart man, knowledge and experience tends to remove irrational fear. I don't know your father or his experience, but it seems like he needs a shooting lesson as well. It may alleviate his fear. No one should fear an inanimate object, it's irrational.

Having been "one of them," for quite a good while, I think it is important to make "them" view the firearm-owning community as more than just a bunch of gun nuts. I don't want to be so pretentious as to try and tell anyone how to win this fight, but think I've got a fairly good idea of what matters to the opposition, is all.

First convincing them that everyone outside of LA and NY aren't idiots is the first step. I grew up in MA, I'm very familiar with the elitism that the Liberals feel. They look down upon anyone not like themselves, and they're proud of this behavior.
 

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
Fly,

On Hitler: Well of course it wasn't JUST guns, but I don't think he could have pulled it off with out the two in tandem. It's not the point to worry, I suppose. (same reason the 2nd Amendment is second; it empowers the 1st)

Every other point:

You are preaching to the choir (me), if only my phrasehology still be from my old mindset.

I guess all I'm thinking is the most blindingly logical arguments aren't necessarily the ones that are going to change the most minds. They are too absolute, too simple, to easy to reject without really thinking about them, at least when I've seen them employed. It's the only reason original intent might matter; it matters to THEM.
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I guess all I'm thinking is the most blindingly logical arguments aren't necessarily the ones that are going to change the most minds. They are too absolute, too simple, to easy to reject without really thinking about them, at least when I've seen them employed. It's the only reason original intent might matter; it matters to THEM.

And you've pointed out the potential failure of logic... if people don't subscribe to logical thought processes, they won't buy off on logical arguments. You'll see it on both sides of the political spectrum, it's not just limited to Liberals. I enjoyed reading your lengthy reply previously though, you've come a long way ;)
 

HueyCobra8151

Well-Known Member
pilot
Since we are on the subject of Hitler, he didn't just use "guns" to enact his will over most of Europe, he also favored strict gun control on his own citizens.

Stalin too...funny...

Pol Pot and Chairman Mao too...hmmm...
 

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
Since we are on the subject of Hitler, he didn't just use "guns" to enact his will over most of Europe, he also favored strict gun control on his own citizens.

Stalin too...funny...

Pol Pot and Chairman Mao too...hmmm...

If I recall correctly, crossbows were outlawed amongst numerous peasantries when they first showed up because they leveled the combative playing field. Normally only those in power had enough free time to perfect bow and sword skills, while the learning curve on a crossbow was much easier.

Only samurai were allowed to carry swords.

Arms control has always been a key to successful authortarian regimes.
 

Random8145

Registered User
I think Kalifornia is a lost cause, unfortunately. Until something radical happens, they're going to continue to think that firearms are the root of crime.

There's a town in Kommiefornia that just made it law that any pet dogs you have that are male must be castrated.

I forget the logic to that one!

What's incredibly odd is Lefties assume that humans are by nature peaceful and loving and so forth, yet they assume that if you give guns to law-abiding individuals, all hell will break lose. You'd think the two would go together, if humans are loving and peaceful, gun ownership shouldn't be a problem, and should allow the peaceful, loving humans to protect themselves from any miscreant who for some reason is not loving and peaceful (I don't believe humans are loving and peaceful, I think a good deal are corrupt %$%#$'s, and gun ownership simply makes all of them re-consider their actions)

I have heard the knife industry is now banning together to try and bring some common sense to the wave of incoming proposed knife legislation.

At the current rate, the culinary industry is going to need Black Market connections to get their knives it seems.

If you carry a knife, keep up on the state-to-state knife laws, b/c if you get caught violating one, you could probably lose your gun rights as well I'd imagine.
 

Random8145

Registered User
If I recall correctly, crossbows were outlawed amongst numerous peasantries when they first showed up because they leveled the combative playing field. Normally only those in power had enough free time to perfect bow and sword skills, while the learning curve on a crossbow was much easier.

Only samurai were allowed to carry swords.

Arms control has always been a key to successful authortarian regimes.

Speaking of which, they're apparently now banning samurai swords in England...http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=13054
 

statesman

Shut up woman... get on my horse.
pilot
What's incredibly odd is Lefties assume that humans are by nature peaceful and loving and so forth, yet they assume that if you give guns to law-abiding individuals, all hell will break lose. You'd think the two would go together, if humans are loving and peaceful, gun ownership shouldn't be a problem, and should allow the peaceful, loving humans to protect themselves from any miscreant who for some reason is not loving and peaceful

I respectfully disagree with your analysis here. My take on this issue is that those who lean to the left and disregard the foundations of Enlightenment Era liberalism don’t believe humans are peaceful whatsoever. My take is that they believe a utopia can exist but can only exist in an environment where the state has control enough to keep us safe from ourselves and from each other.

This simply can not happen. In the ~6000 years of recorded human history there has not been one instance in which humans as a collective have been at peace with each other. There is nothing to suggest that humans are peaceful whatsoever. Nearly all early societies have had some sort of soldier class, whether militia or professional. Throughout human history most advances in technological development have been either expressly perused or eventually applied to warfare.

Simply put humans are not peaceful. We are a tribal social species. We are cognitive enough to associate value with land and objects. As such we are willing to engage in conflict with other tribes as a means to increase our own possessions. To suggest any thing other would be to deny all evidence of history and human behavior.
 

statesman

Shut up woman... get on my horse.
pilot
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I figured that in light of yesterdays shooting it might be appropriate. As a result of the tragedy I have written a letter to my university news paper, which is quoted below. I figured it might be good opportunity to engage in further discussion.


The photography on the front page of the February 15 issue is quite telling of why American schools are continuously under assault from unstable or otherwise violent individuals. Looking past the gurney with a bloodied victim and the ambulance, readers see several photographers snapping photos that have become today’s headlines in local, national, and international editions. It is interesting to me that we, as a society, continue to flock to, and thus publicize these events and then ask why it continues to happen. Inevitably America’s gun culture will be blamed in the press just as it has been in the aftermath of Virginia Tech, Columbine, and countless other tragedies. Yet no one in the media will mention the possibility that these events are a result of the attention brought to the perpetrators.

I submit that what is needed is not further gun control on our campuses, rather it is less. We have on this campus untold numbers of Concealed Handgun Licensees (CHL) who are disarmed by New Mexico State law and University policy. Imagine a situation where a sociopath enters Woodward hall during a full lecture armed with several weapons. The result would without question be tragic; however a single CHL holder could end the shooting spree before serious casualties are inflicted. Such a scenario has already played out at the Appalachian School of Law when two concerned students subdued a gunman with their own weapons.

It must be made clear that I do not in any way wish to discount the loss of life in this most recent shooting, or any school shooting; rather my intent is to bring awareness to the issue of student safety. In the aftermath of university shootings we must remember that one does not discard the values of western society by picking up a weapon, rather it is the disregard for civilized society which causes one to take up a weapon against his/her neighbor. I encourage faculty and students to remember that firearms are tools which at the most basic level are designed to move a metal projectile in a relatively straight line at a high rate of speed through the use of chemical energy stored in a propellant, nothing more. It is the action of the user which results in justice or injustice. I further hope that university officials and students will work to allow CHL holders to exercise their rights in an effort to keep the student body more secure.
 
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