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"Clashing Military Cultures"

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jarhead

UAL CA; retired hinge
pilot
preach on brotha ...

NEW YORK POST ONLINE ED
by Ralph Peters

CLASHING MILITARY CULTURES

April 13, 2005 -- LAST month, I sat in the of fice of Col. Jon "Dog" Davis, a veteran Marine aviator. While at war, the Corps' pilots had seen a rise in their accident rate. Davis was determined to do something about it.

I wanted to be sympathetic, so I said, "Well, you're flying some very old aircraft."

Davis, a taut, no-nonsense Marine, looked me in the eye and said, "They may be old, but they're good. That's no excuse."

As commander of the Marine Aviation Weapons and Tactics Squadron 1 out in Yuma, Ariz., Davis could have nodded and gone along, blaming the jets and helicopters. But he's a Marine. And Marines don't make excuses. They do their best with what the taxpayers give them. And their best is pretty damn good.

Contrast that with a recent conversation I had with two Air Force generals. I had written columns critical of the platinum-plated F/A-22, the most expensive fighter in history and an aircraft without a mission. So the Air Force decided to lobby me.

Those two generals spun the numbers until the stone-cold truth was buried under a mantra of "air dominance," imaginary combat roles and financial slight-of-hand. Still, I wanted to be fair. I took them seriously and investigated their claims.

Not one thing they said held up under scrutiny.

Morally bankrupt, the Air Force is willing to turn a blind eye to the pressing needs of soldiers and Marines at war in order to get more of its $300-million-apiece junk fighters. With newer, far more costly aircraft than the Marines possess, the Air Force pleads that it just can't defend our country without devouring the nation's defense budget.

Meanwhile, Marine aviators fly combat missions in aging jets and ancient helicopters, doing their best for America — and refusing to beg, lie, cheat or blame their gear.

I had gone out to Yuma to speak to Dog Davis' Marines about future war. The truth is they should have been lecturing to me. There is nothing more inspiring than being around United States Marines (yes, a retired Army officer wrote that). The Corps does more with its limited resources than any other branch of government. The Marines are a bargain rivaled only by our under-funded Coast Guard.

Even the military installations are different. A Marine base is well-maintained and perfectly groomed, but utterly without frills. Guest quarters are Motel 6, not the St. Regis. Air Force bases are the country clubs of la vie militaire.

Meanwhile, the Air Force twiddles its thumbs and dreams of war with China. Its leaders would even revive the Soviet Union, if they could. Just to have something to do.

If you go into the Pentagon these days, you'll find only half of the building is at war. The Army and Marine staffs (the latter in the Navy Annex) put in brutal hours and barely see their families. The Navy, at least, is grappling with the changed strategic environment. Meanwhile, the Air Force staff haunts the Pentagon espresso bar and lobbies for more money.

The Air Force hasn't forgotten how to fight. But it only wants to fight the other services.

Recently, the blue-suiters have been floating one of the most disgraceful propositions I've ever encountered in Washington (and that's saying something).

I heard the con directly from one of the Air Force generals who tried to sell me on the worthless F/A-22. The poison goes like this: "The Air Force and Navy can dominate their battle space. Why can't the Army and Marines?"

Let me translate that: At a time when soldiers and Marines are fighting and dying in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, the Air Force shamefully implies that our ground forces are incompetent, hinting that, if the Air Force ran the world, we'd get better results.

How low can a service go? Not a single Air Force fighter pilot has lost his life in combat in Iraq. But the Air Force is willing to slander those who do our nation's fighting and dying.

As for the vile proposition itself, well, it's easy to "dominate your battle space" if you don't have anyone to battle. Our fighter-jock Air Force doesn't have an enemy (Air Force special-ops and transport crews, as well as ground-liaison personnel, serve magnificently — but the generals regard them as second-class citizens).

While courage is certainly required, Air Force and Navy combat challenges are engineering problems, matters of physics and geometry. Our Army and Marines, by contrast, face brutally human, knife-fight conflicts that require human solutions.

The Air Force is about metal. The Marines and Army deal in flesh and blood — in problems that don't have clear or easy solutions.

Hey, if the Air Force knows of a simple, by-the-numbers way to win the War on Terror, combat insurgents in urban terrain and help battered populations rebuild their countries, the generals in blue ought to share the wisdom. (They've certainly been paid enough for it.)

But the Air Force doesn't have any solutions. Just institutional greed. Their strategy? Trash our troops. Lie about capabilities and costs. Belittle the genuine dangers facing our country, while creating imaginary threats. Keep the F/A-22 buy alive, no matter what it takes.

A little while ago I wrote that our Air Force needed to be saved from itself. Now I'm no longer sure salvation's possible.

If you want to see how to fly and fight, call in the Marines.

Ralph Peters is the author of "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War and Peace."

article found at New York Post

Semper Fidelis
 

skidkid

CAS Czar
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Though I agree with his assessment of the Marine Corps and it paints us in a good light I think the attack on the Airforce was a bit heavy handed. Yes, the F-22 is expensive do we need it, the jury is still out(I tend to be somwaht in favor of it).

There are organizations in the Air Force that are working very hard and are every bit the professional wariors that we in the Naval Serivces are. I think his comments about the Air Force not caring about the grunts on the ground is a slap in the face to the AC-130 guys and some others doing long stints in Iraq supporting Marine and Army infantry. There are politicians masquerading as offciers in all branches (yes unfortunately even in my beloved Corps)

Bottom line I think this article is a cheap shot and every sevice has acquisition skeletons in their closet, the V-22 comes to mind.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
skidkid said:
I think his comments about the Air Force not caring about the grunts on the ground is a slap in the face to the AC-130 guys and some others doing long stints in Iraq supporting Marine and Army infantry.

He did say "(Air Force special-ops and transport crews, as well as ground-liaison personnel, serve magnificently — but the generals regard them as second-class citizens)." AC-130s are spec ops.

Bottom line I think this article is a cheap shot and every sevice has acquisition skeletons in their closet, the V-22 comes to mind.

Except the V-22 has a mission, one validated by current events.

Excellent article.
 

Ryoukai

The Chief doesn't like cheeky humor...at all
Does anybody have any answers as to why the AF likes to spend money like it's going out of style? Why hasn't anybody called shenanigans on them after the B-2 and now the F-22? The more I read into the history of the B-2, it seems like a giant pit in which money was thrown and the Raptor doesn't look like it has a real busy future ahead of it either. Somebody, call shenanigans.
 

skidkid

CAS Czar
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I wasnt saying that the V-22 doesnt have a misison. It has had a very painful and expensive development. I think the F-22 has a role to play and even if purchased in limted numebrs I think it is a good idea. I dont want to get into another V-22 thing here at all.

I dont do this often but I think this hit the boys in blue harder than is fair
 

Cyclic

Behold the Big Iron
I think this Mr. Peters is a little bit fanatical but has some valid issues...and bad ones, worthless F-22...I'm sure he can back that one up!! Maybe he's counting on our children flying F-15X's and F-16W's 30 years from now... in any case I really hope he's wrong about that, cause a couple of years ago ADM Johnson coming back from a flight in an F-14D stated something along the lines of the Super Hornet not bringing anything that the "D" could'nt do...nevertheless now we have to swallow it for a couple of decades....at least the '35 is coming...uuhh maybe.
 

Jolly Roger

Yes. I am a Pirate.
Ryoukai said:
Does anybody have any answers as to why the AF likes to spend money like it's going out of style? Why hasn't anybody called shenanigans on them after the B-2 and now the F-22? The more I read into the history of the B-2, it seems like a giant pit in which money was thrown and the Raptor doesn't look like it has a real busy future ahead of it either. Somebody, call shenanigans.

If I hear shenanigans again I am going to have to pistol whip someone. :D

I wonder how many boys in blue still believe that strategic air power ALONE can win wars?
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Jolly Roger said:
If I hear shenanigans again I am going to have to pistol whip someone. :D

I wonder how many boys in blue still believe that strategic air power ALONE can win wars?
Well, Allied Force didn't do a whole lot to disuade them.

Brett
 

kmac

Coffee Drinker
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Can't go into any details obviously, but I have seen recent photos of the outcome of naval airpower and grunts working together over here in this part of the world. Sounds (and looks) like a winning combination to me. And to think that "old, slow" aircraft aren't very capable...
 

TurnandBurn55

Drinking, flying, or looking busy!!
None
UInavy said:
Not to threadjack like crazy here, but that is no longer a widely held assumption. Not even close. Speed is great,....if you're running away.

Or if you're chasing Soviet Backfires over the North Atlantic...

Remember the mantra of 'generals always want to fight the last war'. I'm pretty well convinced that's what the Chair Force is thinking with the F/"A"-22 (seriously, what's with the "A"? Is it that cool planes HAVE to be F/A-something? Because there's no rational reason to call the Raptor an F/A but not the Strike Eagle...). It's designed to re-fight the Cold War over Eastern Europe.

ADM Johnson may have been forward thinking, but his view was no doubt influenced by his own background... an old-school F-8 Crusader guy...
 

Ryoukai

The Chief doesn't like cheeky humor...at all
^ The AF couldn't justify having a heavily tricked out Eagle, so they added the "A" to try and trick people into thinking that it's some sort of jack of all trades that isn't just some king of budget hole that congress throws money into so that we can keep the skies clear of...well, you know, I'm sure SOMEBODY with planes will pick a WWII style war with us.
 
B

Blutonski816

Guest
Yeah... I remember when the LM guys kept boasting that it could "take out anything in the air without being detected until it was too late" and stuff like that.
Now they reallly stress the fact that it can carry a load of JDAMs and deliver them undetected, and still go air-to-air.

Now, I'm one of the guys who doesn't believe in the McNamara doctrine of commonality. There is no such thing as the do-it-all plane. I believe that for every major role in airpower, there's the right plane for the job. However, I don't think the right plane has to drain the defense budget and take practically forever to get done. I'm not the biggest S.Hornet Fan, but at least it's done Combat duty. The F-22 started earlier, but still hasn't deployed anywhere.
Proposed Hornet Versions(I'm sure many of you remember this)
Sure, I'd love to ride on two big-'ole 35,000 lbs engines, but for the AF to claim that the F/A-22 is America's only hope really depreciates the value of our First-strike, SEAD and Precision weapons Systems.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Ryoukai said:
^ The AF couldn't justify having a heavily tricked out Eagle, so they added the "A" to try and trick people into thinking that it's some sort of jack of all trades that isn't just some king of budget hole that congress throws money into so that we can keep the skies clear of...well, you know, I'm sure SOMEBODY with planes will pick a WWII style war with us.

I guess the F-15's being spanked by the Indian Air Force is just a fluke. Or the fact that China is building hundreds of Flankers is just a minor little thing. Are these guys an immediate threat, no. But they represent a pretty big chunk of the world.

Whiel I am not the greatest fan of the Air Force they do their job and usually do it well. They do get pretty big for their britches way too often but they need their toys like everyone else. As for the MArines, some of their pain is self inflicted. They could be flying US 101's or S-92's right now if they weren't wrapped around the handle about the V-22.

As for the guy who wrote the article he sounds like another one of the experts, like David Hackworth, who keep saying "if only people woulld listen to me, we would have all our problems solved....".
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Ryoukai said:
I'm sure SOMEBODY with planes will pick a WWII style war with us.
WWII? Let's not get ridiculous now. China anyone? Concur with Flash!

Brett
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
Flash said:
I guess the F-15's being spanked by the Indian Air Force is just a fluke. Or the fact that China is building hundreds of Flankers is just a minor little thing. Are these guys an immediate threat, no. But they represent a pretty big chunk of the world.

I wouldn't say it was a fluke but maybe it was planned. A fellow Air Force pilot I just happen to know (F-15E and F-16C driver) knew a little bit about this operation. Note* I'm sure you know more of this than me so I understand I'm preaching to the choir. A lot of what we do is intell gathering on the capabilities of foreign air forces and pilots. So we often play by their rules, give them the advantage and try not to hurt their egos. Just recently, our airwing fought the Sings in Operation Cope Tiger. We had to play by their rules and often their claims for a kill would not be valid under our guys ROE. Again, I'm speaking through second hand info from my fighter buddies so any fighter types, please feel free to correct me. Afterall, what the **** is a COD guy doing talking about fighter stuff :confused: :confused: :D
 
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