We're in agreement, but PPC can pre-empt the questioning by simply stating "we're doing x in order to accomplish y" rather than simply stating "we're doing x". That's not always necessary, but it can't hurt.I'd think the role of the TC here should be to receive the MC's input of going below 500, then passing that to the rest of the crew (and being the firewall for issues from the crew). If TC has any tactical objections to this course of action, the time to discuss it is when the MC is telling him about what's about to happen.
Gator asks a lot of questions I would ask as well without knowing the full story. Overall sounds like although your decision was safe and within NATOPS, your crew didn't know your decision making process and you caught them by surprise.This may be part of the (community) issue if you don't understand the question. There's a line in the H60 NATOPS brief about hard and soft decks as well as altitude discussions. I'm sure the pointy side has a similar brief point. If I were to be doing a NATOPS brief for ASW, regardless of platform, it would include altitudes and contingencies, all of which are going to be pretty low (given my platform experience and tactics....I get it's possible for you guys to be higher under certain conditions).
I think squorch's point was that if it's briefed that you may be going down to 500'/200' feet (which seems perfectly acceptable for the mission, from what you're saying), the crew has little to complain about since it was briefed well in advanced (and as you said, was also said at the time of descent).
I'd be careful with that. I agree, debrief by ASAP isn't good CRM, but as the AC, keeping people in the loop sometimes can smooth over the other times when you can't explain something due to outside constraints.
Or to put it this way...I don't talk to my crews now about every little thing I'm doing as much as I did when I was a new hire because they (presumably) trust me now, but I had to build that trust with CRM (and vice versa, even if they didn't realize it). I get it, you're the AC and the final authority (and responsibility), but sometimes that's not always enough, right or wrong.
I do have a question, though. Could we solve this community issue if we put the P-8 in the Delta and moved HSC over to the ASW mission? Asking for a friend.
yeah another thing pickled, i'd drop any use of the word "millenial." Don't make it a generational thing, a one anchor vs two, an O vs E, or anything like that. make it a mentorship discussion between an experienced operator teaching nuggets. A professional raising the professional knowledge of the FNGs so they can take the torch.Nothing wrong with flying low for a good reason. Period. But I'd guess your disdain for flying with millenials is getting in the way of sound communication and ultimately trust with your crew. Being the curmudgeon that is reluctant to brief their reasoning for a reasonable course of action is a one way ticket to alienating your crew. Nobody, repeat, nobody cares about how it was done in the P-3.
Establishing “my way or the highway” culture ain’t it it either.True. And addressing possible CRM issues via Anymouse, rather than face to face in a debrief, is not good CRM and might just be “for millennials” ?
What Pickle is referring to is a culture shift from a community that routinely flew low and aggressive to establish/maintain contact and then kill the target, to one that is getting too damn comfortable with all the bells & whistles that comes with the commercial passenger jet. This has NOTHING to do about Millenials, safety or the P-3 versus P-8 mindset. It has EVERYTHING to do with a warfighting culture (or, in this case, a lack thereof) and being able to exploit the full Cap/Lims of your TMS to achieve mission success.Back in the day we had hard decks:
200 day VMC
300 night VMC or day IMC
500 night IMC
1000 with 2 engines loitered.
There was no briefing we’re descending from whatever to whatever. If we were at 2000 feet tracking and it was time for an attack, we went down. The only brief was “going below a 1000” on the interphone so everyone knew to put their LPAs on.
This should be routine and not require a special brief. If a P-8 pilot can’t fly low without being scared, he shouldn’t be flying.
From what I can see from the peanut gallery, VP is becoming the laughing stock of naval aviation. With this attitude, it’s no wonder.
Those are the words he’s using to describe what appears to be an entirely different issue...What Pickle is referring to is a culture shift from a community that routinely flew low and aggressive to establish/maintain contact and then kill the target, to one that is getting too damn comfortable with all the bells & whistles that comes with the commercial passenger jet. This has NOTHING to do about Millenials, safety or the P-3 versus P-8 mindset. It has EVERYTHING to do with a warfighting culture (or, in this case, a lack thereof) and being able to exploit the full Cap/Lims of your TMS to achieve mission success.
Then it’s incumbent upon us as leaders to teach and explain to the next generations who don’t know better. If they’re scared of VFR, then plan a VFR flight with them. If they’re uncomfortable going low, then take them low. Explain the importance of what we do so they can pass that to the next generation.
Sometimes, as AC, you don't have time to explain and ask pretty please with sugar on top if you can put your LPU on and may we descend to 200, mr petty officer 3rd class. "we can't get what we need to get done at 500, we're going to try 200. once we're done, we'll climb back up. put your LPUs on." Why the fuck would any aviator expect someone to climb back through the clouds (more risk), waste more gas (less options), talk about going back down through the clouds again (there's more risk, again), only to drop 300' lower than he just was?
I never said to climb back up and that you'd have to do all that. That point in time is too late. Again, as a leader you have to be working with your crew during sims, training events, etc. so that when it comes to that point there is no question, if you need to descend to 200, descend and get the job done. Or it's easy as, "hey, the weather sucks and the only way we need to accomplish this task is to go to 200 so we're below the ceiling. If you're still uncomfortable with that, we can discuss later on the transit home or on deck."
Conversely, if your entire crew takes umbrage with something you're doing, maybe you should listen. Or be a leader and lead.