Aviator progression in the Navy

[helolumpy]

Renegade,
In my expirience, I think the issue is more the attitude of SOME LDO's and Warrants when it comes to standing duty. In my 5 flying tours, I've seen LDOs and WO stand duty only when the flight schedule get really hectic, like C2X.
Most of the LDO and WO would gladly step in and cover duty when the pilots were all flying twice, standing an Alert and having to do strike planning.
I've seen two LDO/WOs bitch about standing duty during those periods. One complained that he used to be a Senior Chief so he shouldn't have to stand duty. That did not go over well when the Scheds O is using some creativity to avoid breaking crew rest for the majority of the pilots.
Most LDOs and WOs would gladly pick up the slack to help the command because when they were not needed, they did not stand duty on the boat and never when we were on the beach.

My only point is that some of the JOs may see the double standard of how "some JOs are more equal then others" and get pissed when the "more equals" complain about having to pick up the slack.

I'm not trying to put words in others mouths, but as I followed this thread, those LDOs and WOs who complained came to my mind, so I wanted to inject that thought.

 

[robav8r]

LDO's will tell you that they earned their commission the "hard way." Not always the "smart" way. LDO also stands for Loud, Dumb & Obnoxious. The very best "Mustangs" (Navy LDO/CWO's) are the ones who use their experience and enlisted time to train the wardroom, mentor the Chiefs Mess and contribute, everyday, to the commands mission. The bad ones will try and stay aligned with their previous enlisted rank and friendships and will always try and manipulate their status as a Mustang to their advantage, never to the commands benefit. Like all designators in the Navy, there are some bad apples out there, but there are also the ones who will stand watch, turn a wrench and be that "Go to leader" when the situation warrants.

 

[scoober78]

Where do you thing we get Aviation Warrant Officers and LDOs...WalMart? Would be nice if they were available for two to the penny, but they're not. Of the literally hundreds of thousands of talented and motivated people who enter the Navy via Great Lakes, they are the ones who have, for many reasons, "bubbled to the top" of their career cauldron. They are "technical specialists" who have excelled in their niche...and are assigned to your command to "lead that niche"...because that niche is vitally important (think running the AO shop...), and because no pilot or NFO will, in a full career, spend enough time in that niche to understand it well enough to be a leader in that arena.
On the day they all get commissioned...yes, they're ALL commissioned (the Navy doesn't do W-1s anymore)...they all pretty much have...what?...10-15 years of sea service in their background? Do you really think they should just have their experience calendar rolled back to zero because they are "junior to the lowest Ensign"? You have much to learn, young Padawan.

Sir, I understand perfectly well where Warrants come from and who they are. I have spent most of my 16 years working directly with them in both the Submarine and Aviation communities. I had a fantastic one pull me under his wing as I walked into the QAO job with literally 0 aviation maintenance experience so that we could get the job done and I could learn something. Their records speak for themselves...as does mine. I can stand without the condescension Sir, especially because this one does nothing to answer my questions.

As for the (apparently) many of you who were also prior enlisted (and therefore feel you've "done your time"), but now have Wings of Gold on your chest and your name on a chair in the Ready Room...suck it up. You DID "zero your shit log" and get to start over as a shitty little JO...in the GREATEST F*CKING JOB in the world. If you can't take a joke...you shouldn't have joined.

Again, nowhere in my post did I suggest that I shouldn't stand duty, or that I should somehow stand less duty than a Warrant or CWO...We all pull the oars.

Simply put, the reason LDO's and Warrants don't tend to stand duty is not out of respect for the prior service. If it were, then plenty of others wouldn't stand duty as well.

 

[Gatordev]

I've seen two LDO/WOs bitch about standing duty during those periods. One complained that he used to be a Senior Chief so he shouldn't have to stand duty.

While not just duty related, I think this goes to a bigger problem with some senior enlisted (be it people still enlisted or prior enlisted). Some enlisted enlisted are princesses, some are the guys you go to for help (and have made my life so much easier). I've had the "pleasure" of being in a command where an E-9 would pull rank on O-4s. It wasn't outright, but there was definitive and targeted tasking sent to certain O-4s. She quickly learned that a) an O-4 can't be pushed around like an O-1 or O-2 or even an O-3 and b) the CO had the O-4s' back when it came to such things. Unfortunately what she didn't learn was how to apply the knowledge. It was an interesting time in the squadron.

 

[squorch2]

what was the end result?

 

[Gatordev]

There were many. Some short term, some longer term. Yes, I'm being vague for a reason and maybe in another few months I'd post more (PM me if you really want to hear). In the end, PCS orders came early.

 

[Renegade One]

I can stand without the condescension Sir, especially because this one does nothing to answer my questions.

Scoob: My apologies...we got disconnected somehow...I'll "roger up" that it was probably my fault. Surely didn't mean to come across as condescending, although on re-read, I can see your point.

As to the discussion topic at hand, I really have no more to add. My community experience clearly differs from your own. Can't really answer much more fully than that. What was (in my time) may no longer be relevant. Would be interested in "your perspective" as to why Warrants and LDOs don't stand duty...if it's not out of respect for their prior service. If not that, then what? Not chipping on you...truly curious. Fair?

Cheers, Spike

 

[scoolbubba]

I have seen on multiple occasions for example, Chiefs housed one to a room while JOs doubled up. It didnt happen to me, but it's out there...figure that one out.

The more things change...

 

[helolumpy]

Renagade,
In my experience LDOs and WOs have not stood duty for two reasons:

First is an acknowledgement that they are not "typical" Ensigns, LTJGs and LTs. They are seen as somewhat different due to life experiences.

Second is that part of the job of the SDO is to manage the flight schedule and brief crews. Since most LDO/WO have no time in the aircraft, they really don't know what to brief to a flight crew. While they can be trained, but their talents are best served elsewhere.

The big reason, in my opinion, is that the LDO/WO typically work in maintenance. (AMO, MMCO and MCO) When the flight schedule starts falling apart, they are usually pretty busy over in maintenance control trying to run the maintenance effort, they don't need to be over in operations (on the beach) or in the Ready Room (on the boat) worried how to make the flight schedule work.

The hours of the aircrew are controllable through the flight schedule, but maintenance never takes a break. Therefore they are typically not on the duty schedule so they can manage maintenance while the guys wearing flight suits stand duty.

 

[Flash]

....Most Warrants and LDOs (at least on the VP/VQ side) don't deploy, they don't have collateral duties...Yes, they have demanding ground jobs, but after your first or perhaps second year in the squadron, so does everyone else...and a flight schedule. Frankly, what I saw was a lot of 0730-1630 clock punching, at which point they would go home and/or babysit the Chiefs who "oh by the way" didn't stand watch either......I have seen on multiple occasions for example, Chiefs housed one to a room while JOs doubled up. It didnt happen to me, but it's out there...figure that one out.

I think coming from VQ your perspective on how LDOs and Warrants act is a little different than in some other comunities. When I was in VQ-1 there was a clear dividing line in the wardroom between the JOs and LDO/Warrants and it wasn't a good one. It was a completely different story in my VAQ squadron, they were part of the wardroom and were equals with the JOs for the most part.

The biggest difference was one of numbers, when I was in VQ-1 there were 8-12 LDO/Warrants in the squadron, enough to reach critical mass and create their own group. They were generally arrogant and aloof when home on the Rosk, rarely interacting with the JOs except when necessary on a professional level and even then it was minimized. When there was an alcohol related death in the squadron along with some other related incidents that separation broke out into open argument and recriminations from the LDO/Warrant side of the wardroom towards the JOs. I have talked to a few single-seat VFA guys and some have said they sometimes had a similar 'divisive' issue with the 4-5 Warrant/LDO types in their squadrons.

In my Prowler squadron we had 2-3 Warrant/LDOs and they were never big enough to create a seperate group. While indivisually some were cool and some weren't there was never a dividing line in the squadron between the two, they were treated and acted the same as any JO (non-flying) in the squadron. The same was true when a LDO or Warrant was the head of VQ maintenance out in Bahrain as they were sometimes when I was there, they were just one of the 'guys' and there were few, if any problems.

So having seen both sides you are both right in some respects, but as is the story with any squadron in the end the front office sets the tone and things can be good, neutral, bad or just plain AFU.

 

[Renegade One]

Renagade,
In my experience LDOs and WOs have not stood duty for two reasons: (...reasons given).

Helolumpy: Good post...thanks...roger to all of that. I didn't include all of the potential "non-aviator officers" that are typically found in a squadron in my original note...probably should have, just for the sake of completeness. True...the "non-aviators" don't normally stand duty on flying days. Just to (again) reflect my own experience, these normally included the squadron AI (Fighter Spy), one or two junior AMDOs, and (at least in the early years of the TOMCAT community) a squadron Supply Corps officer (Fighter Chop). None of these were LDOs or Warrants, but typical JOs from other training pipelines. They were all "fair game" for any/all "non-flying duty days"...at-sea, in-port, ashore...whatever. Their duty load was obviously "weighted" to account for the fact that they couldn't do duty while we were flying...otherwise they'd have owned every weekend, in-port liberty, or holiday...which wouldn't be quite fair.

I guess my original comment concerning how and why we "excused" Warrants and LDOs remains germane. Your mileage may differ. In a VF squadron, we normally had only one Warrant (the "Gunner") and 1-2 maintenance-type LDOs. Right? Wrong? I dunno...it was the way I was raised and I learned to just "genuflect" at that early on.

CLEARLY...other communities have vastly different "officer mixes" and what worked for us way back then may not apply to your case.

BOTTOM LINE: I STILL think being the Squadron SWO is a "good gig". Embrace it...make it work...keep it fair & balanced...and you'll earn your bros' respect. One less thing to worry about on that great and glorious day...

 

[scoober78]

Scoob: My apologies...we got disconnected somehow...I'll "roger up" that it was probably my fault. Surely didn't mean to come across as condescending, although on re-read, I can see your point.

As to the discussion topic at hand, I really have no more to add. My community experience clearly differs from your own. Can't really answer much more fully than that. What was (in my time) may no longer be relevant. Would be interested in "your perspective" as to why Warrants and LDOs don't stand duty...if it's not out of respect for their prior service. If not that, then what? Not chipping on you...truly curious. Fair?

Cheers, Spike

Copy all Sir. No worries. Isn't the first, won't be the last...complex thoughts on the internet and all.

As for the real question at hand...Why don't they stand duty? Well, I think as many have pointed out, it all boils down to the agreement between the Warrants/LDO's and the front office. I think there were several good points made in Helolumpy's post about potentially why they shouldn't. They do have responsibilities which they may be called upon to act on to a greater extent than the average JO...helping work red arrows into green etc...I get that. In that same post (#69 Just to be clear) though, I think part of it misses the mark at least in my VQ experience. Yes, WO's and LDO's don't understand the flight schedule to the extent that wing wearers do...however neither do Intel O's who stand duty. That alone doesn't exclude them. Further, nuggets just showing up definitely don't understand it, but they are by God fodder for the watch bill.

Again, I have to go back to the contract between the front office and the Warrants and LDO's...If the trust is there...and respect going both ways, then I can see keeping them off the watch bill. In my mind, if I were the boss, and I know that I could without asking expect them to step in and get it done...wherever, whenever AND they were busy enough to warrant it, then sure. I could abide keeping them off the watch bill.

Bottom line? It all comes down to the people in the seats. I don't want to slight the reputations of anyone...but where I stand is definitely a product of where I sat. As I said, I've known great WO's and LDO's and have been fortunate to learn a lot from them. Suffice it to say that the relationship I experienced as a JO, is not the one I would want to foster amongst the Wardroom as a Skipper if the Navy is crazy enough to give me a whack at it. It's been interesting to hear the differences in community reflected in this relationship and I look forward to seeing another side of it in VAQ. Nuff said by me. Thanks all.

 

[statesman]

I firmly believe one of the best things we could do for Navy Air would be to have guys go to a different platform for their Disassoc tour instead of being a shooter or ANAV or whatever. Shake people out of their complacency level a bit - catch guys right at that "senior LT who knows everything" level - and force them to look at things differently, see how another community does things and learn that the (my community) way isn't the only way.

Makes a lot of sense Fester... and there is no room for that in this Navy.

 

[Uncle Fester]

I don't think the LDOs/CWOs in my squadron were excused from the watchbill because of saltiness. As our skipper put it, they're doing a shitload of work underway, every day, back in Maint Control. In port, they were on the watchbill same as everybody else.

 

[Tycho_Brohe]

I hope no one minds me reviving this old thread from a few months back. I've been thinking quite a bit about my prospective career as a NA, in particular about staying in after my initial commitment period and serving for at least the 20 years needed to garner retirement benefits. I've heard that the standard progression for the initial commitment is about 3 years or so sea duty, 2 years shore duty, and a disassociated non-flying sea tour, but I'm anxious to hear about people's experiences after that, what's next for a Naval Aviator in terms of continuing to fly vs. moving to a command position, what might my options be, etc. Any and all responses are greatly appreciated.