As anyone aware what happens when a SNA or SNFO washes out of flight training-such as can they redesignate to another community such as SEALS or SPEC OPS. Are they given a choice is the question. Probably answered best by those of you who are already in the fleet. The reason why I ask is that granted I do not plan on washing out-however I like to be prepared and pursue other areas where I feel interested and not assigned somewhere and doing something that I would not enjoy. Such as being placed in a restricted line officer status(intel/crypto/aviation maintenance duty officer) you get the point. I want action and I want adventure-and I want to do something that I cannot do in the corporate world. Thats why I am applying for the NAVY and not corporate america USA.
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There are several considerations and scenarios to that question. Did you attrite because you could not stop puking all over yourself or because you didn't study.?. Did you attrite but demonstrated a good professional demeanor or were you a dirtbag?
I'm not exactly sure how it is now working in Primary, however, I can speak from my current experiences. In the strike training community CNATRA does not attrite, they transition.
So you can't fly a somewhat centered ball onspeed to touchdown, you suck at Forms, and you just couldn't keep up with instrument flying at 300kts - and you end up getting attrited - you will go fly helos or P-3s.
This is all of course based on the fact that you have not proven yourself to be a complete buffoon, totally lacking in the headwork department. If you go out and get a DUI or something else completely stupid then you have made your bed and now you must....well you know rest.
Something that recently occured here in Meridian that may prove how badly CNATRA wants to keep good guys in the aviation pipeline: two Marines were attrited for generally marginal performance. Their boards, CO, and the Commodore all agreed that they were good guys, just not suited for Strike. Unfortunately, as Marines, if they are attrited they are done, they're going to pound ground. The commodore thought that this policy was jacked and was able to get both of these Marines transitions from Second Lieutenants to Ensigns in the Navy so that they could transtition to the helo program. Both of the Marines in question took this choice and will probably be getting winged before the end of the year.
jec
Edited by - vt9jack on 07/26/2001 23:21:23
I'm not exactly sure how it is now working in Primary, however, I can speak from my current experiences. In the strike training community CNATRA does not attrite, they transition.
So you can't fly a somewhat centered ball onspeed to touchdown, you suck at Forms, and you just couldn't keep up with instrument flying at 300kts - and you end up getting attrited - you will go fly helos or P-3s.
This is all of course based on the fact that you have not proven yourself to be a complete buffoon, totally lacking in the headwork department. If you go out and get a DUI or something else completely stupid then you have made your bed and now you must....well you know rest.
Something that recently occured here in Meridian that may prove how badly CNATRA wants to keep good guys in the aviation pipeline: two Marines were attrited for generally marginal performance. Their boards, CO, and the Commodore all agreed that they were good guys, just not suited for Strike. Unfortunately, as Marines, if they are attrited they are done, they're going to pound ground. The commodore thought that this policy was jacked and was able to get both of these Marines transitions from Second Lieutenants to Ensigns in the Navy so that they could transtition to the helo program. Both of the Marines in question took this choice and will probably be getting winged before the end of the year.
jec
Edited by - vt9jack on 07/26/2001 23:21:23
I can't speak for to far into the program, but we had a few attrites while I was in API and they basically had no choice. Believe me it takes a lot to attrite from API academics, and its not a difficult portion of training so if they do attrite you they don't think that much of you. I saw them keep guys with four failures. When they finally got the boot they were sent where the Navy wanted them to go. For example, someone I went through OCS with attrired and put in for a supply billet and they decided she would transition to Aviation Maitnance Duty Officer in Japan. As for the rest of training I am assured they are not so lax with failures, but it is sad to see someone fail the Aero midterm 3 times and still stay in the program.
so apparently it sounds like it depends where you are in the pipeline if that should happen-does this also apply to snfo as well as sna. and again can you put in a preference sheet (needs of the navy i understand) of other communities to interview for. transition as you put it. do nfo's transition from one craft to another if they fail-i.e. jets to prop? or does uncle sam say we need you on a ship? especially if you are in excellant physical shape(i.e. SEALS/SPEC OPS) which I am told are very small and very competitive communities. Even more so than aviation. any more light on the subject would be greatly appreciated.
Unfortunately I can't really help you with any information as far as the NFO side of the house goes...
You are correct that it does depend on how far into the program you were as well as many other factors like I spoke of in my previous post.
Currently there are no attrition 'quotas' in the Strike Pipeline. They are not required to attrite X number of people per fiscal year. Their job is to wing aviators. With that said the current attrition rate is roughly 6-7% in Intermediate and Advanced. That is very low. There is a lot of bad gouge running through the Primary rumor mill that the attrition rates are much much higher. That is simply not true .
As far as being able to get a SeAL/SPECOPS slot after attriting from flight school - I can't imagine that it would be too easy. That kind of training is just as demanding and, in many areas, much more difficult than flight school. Obviously is you medically attrite from flight school you can be assured that you are probably NPQ for SPECWAR. If you attrited for headwork issues or something related they're probably not gonna put you in a SeAL team...
In the big picture of things though, the availability of different transitions should not be a huge concern of yours. Your number one concern should be to work your hardest and suceed in flight school.
jec
You are correct that it does depend on how far into the program you were as well as many other factors like I spoke of in my previous post.
Currently there are no attrition 'quotas' in the Strike Pipeline. They are not required to attrite X number of people per fiscal year. Their job is to wing aviators. With that said the current attrition rate is roughly 6-7% in Intermediate and Advanced. That is very low. There is a lot of bad gouge running through the Primary rumor mill that the attrition rates are much much higher. That is simply not true .
As far as being able to get a SeAL/SPECOPS slot after attriting from flight school - I can't imagine that it would be too easy. That kind of training is just as demanding and, in many areas, much more difficult than flight school. Obviously is you medically attrite from flight school you can be assured that you are probably NPQ for SPECWAR. If you attrited for headwork issues or something related they're probably not gonna put you in a SeAL team...
In the big picture of things though, the availability of different transitions should not be a huge concern of yours. Your number one concern should be to work your hardest and suceed in flight school.
jec
I just spent last week on an LHA and a LPD. As I strolled the ship in my green PJ's, I met many a former SNA's and SNFO's in various roles around the ship, obviously, SWO related billets. The blunt truth is, you just failed out a very expensive, dream school. Do you think the Navy will give you another dream shot? Probably not. What they will give you is a choice of fields they are dificient in and let you choose. I'm not say that you could'nt go to BUDS but it is unlikely.
By the way, all of you who are thinking "Cool if I fail out of flight school as a Marine, I can transition to the Navy. Goody!" That's Horsecrap! I can gurantee that the only reason those two gents could get a sex change to the Navy is because they were at the end of there 4 year contract. Luckily for them, they failed out of jets and were at the end of their commissioning contract. Guess what would have happened if they had failed out of Helos. They would probably still have between a year to a year and a half left on their contract. Guess what, you'll be shipped out and sent to a new MOS school and will pound ground for the remainder of your tour. Just keep that in mind. Semper Fi! Frumby
Attack Pilot
Major USMC
By the way, all of you who are thinking "Cool if I fail out of flight school as a Marine, I can transition to the Navy. Goody!" That's Horsecrap! I can gurantee that the only reason those two gents could get a sex change to the Navy is because they were at the end of there 4 year contract. Luckily for them, they failed out of jets and were at the end of their commissioning contract. Guess what would have happened if they had failed out of Helos. They would probably still have between a year to a year and a half left on their contract. Guess what, you'll be shipped out and sent to a new MOS school and will pound ground for the remainder of your tour. Just keep that in mind. Semper Fi! Frumby
Attack Pilot
Major USMC
In particular, SpecOps, SpecWar:
UNLESS YOUR DADDY IS A SPECOPS OR A SPECWAR ADMIRAL (or if you're a prior SEAL or EOD Tech), YOU HAVE ALMOST NO CHANCE OF REDESIGNATING TO THESE COMMUNITIES AS A FALLEN ANGEL. My response may seem ill-humored, but it's the truth. Call the SpecOps detailer or SpecWar detailer. They will not pick up non-surface qualified officers, and it is VERY competitive right now to get into SpecWar. SpecOps is slightly less competitive (it's just that it's less popular, written about, and glammed-up, NOT that it's less challenging) but they will not touch a Mod 1 Mk O flight attrite. As far as they are concerned, you are in competition with SWOs coming off of ships, often OOD and EOOW qualed, and with good, solid fitreps.
I would recommend that if you really think you rather be doing EOD or SEAL ops, then go do them! If you haven't yet started OCS, make a visit to either the Teams or EOD units at Little Creek or Coronado. The recruiter would love to talk to you, and the EOD at Coronado is one very cool, very straight shoooter. It will be easier to attrite and come to aviation than to go the other way.
You will not be placed in "restricted line officer status" for attriting. If you get sent somewhere, you will be placed in General Aviation. Even surface now requires an interview, and a two-week at-sea screening. You will either complete your minimum time in service in GenAv
(carrier duty, wing staff, possibly overseas sea) or lateral to supply, intel, SWO, or something else....NOT SpecOps or SpecWar, they still won't touch you as a GenAv officer.
JT
UNLESS YOUR DADDY IS A SPECOPS OR A SPECWAR ADMIRAL (or if you're a prior SEAL or EOD Tech), YOU HAVE ALMOST NO CHANCE OF REDESIGNATING TO THESE COMMUNITIES AS A FALLEN ANGEL. My response may seem ill-humored, but it's the truth. Call the SpecOps detailer or SpecWar detailer. They will not pick up non-surface qualified officers, and it is VERY competitive right now to get into SpecWar. SpecOps is slightly less competitive (it's just that it's less popular, written about, and glammed-up, NOT that it's less challenging) but they will not touch a Mod 1 Mk O flight attrite. As far as they are concerned, you are in competition with SWOs coming off of ships, often OOD and EOOW qualed, and with good, solid fitreps.
I would recommend that if you really think you rather be doing EOD or SEAL ops, then go do them! If you haven't yet started OCS, make a visit to either the Teams or EOD units at Little Creek or Coronado. The recruiter would love to talk to you, and the EOD at Coronado is one very cool, very straight shoooter. It will be easier to attrite and come to aviation than to go the other way.
You will not be placed in "restricted line officer status" for attriting. If you get sent somewhere, you will be placed in General Aviation. Even surface now requires an interview, and a two-week at-sea screening. You will either complete your minimum time in service in GenAv
(carrier duty, wing staff, possibly overseas sea) or lateral to supply, intel, SWO, or something else....NOT SpecOps or SpecWar, they still won't touch you as a GenAv officer.
JT
I just reread some of the posts. Major Frumby is on the ball. I'm not up on Marine policies, but as you could probably guess, I'm an aviation attrite, out of primary at Vance. I've had the luck to have the past ten months or so to seek a job, since the Navy tends to leave us in place until they redesignate us. I've had several friends go GenAv now, and that seems to be the current trend, at least from Vance.
I will say again: SpecOps and SpecWar will not pick you up. I was in pretty good physical shape, the EOD recruiter seemed impressed, and have a solid academic background in aviation training and college. In the end, there was not a bleeding chance. There was nothing that my CO could do, nor was there anything the EOD recruiter or his chain could do (I interviewed with the chain...) So, I'm swinging now.
Recently, I've seen two naval officers try to become Marines. Both were USNA grads, and had been to Leatherneck, so they seemed to think they had a decent shot. Not a chance. The Navy will get it's money out of you, and I'm sure the Marines are much the same.
Lessons Learned:
1. If you realize pilot training is not what you want to do, even if you lose buddies killed, attrited, or NPQed during the process, don't lose your focus. It may be something you don't initially like doing, but aviation is still a cool place.
2. If you're an attrite, plan on earning your place back into the naval officer corps. You've just p*ssed away a golden opportunity in some fashion, whether it be academic busts or DOR (exception: NPQ), and you better be prepared to show everybody that you're a capable officer as a GenAva bubba or a SWO before you expect to be redesignated to something cool (including even Intel, Av Mx, Subs).
Stick with it, fly safe
JT
I will say again: SpecOps and SpecWar will not pick you up. I was in pretty good physical shape, the EOD recruiter seemed impressed, and have a solid academic background in aviation training and college. In the end, there was not a bleeding chance. There was nothing that my CO could do, nor was there anything the EOD recruiter or his chain could do (I interviewed with the chain...) So, I'm swinging now.
Recently, I've seen two naval officers try to become Marines. Both were USNA grads, and had been to Leatherneck, so they seemed to think they had a decent shot. Not a chance. The Navy will get it's money out of you, and I'm sure the Marines are much the same.
Lessons Learned:
1. If you realize pilot training is not what you want to do, even if you lose buddies killed, attrited, or NPQed during the process, don't lose your focus. It may be something you don't initially like doing, but aviation is still a cool place.
2. If you're an attrite, plan on earning your place back into the naval officer corps. You've just p*ssed away a golden opportunity in some fashion, whether it be academic busts or DOR (exception: NPQ), and you better be prepared to show everybody that you're a capable officer as a GenAva bubba or a SWO before you expect to be redesignated to something cool (including even Intel, Av Mx, Subs).
Stick with it, fly safe
JT
Sir,
Can you enlighten me on the Vance pipeline for Primary? I would like to know if it is quite different(besides the fact you fly the tweet)as I have heard in the past. And after your experience, would you recomend joint training with the airfarce? What have you heard from others........this is a question I think many of us future SNA's would like to know! I an OU Midy right now.......but dont plan to come back and fly the friendly skys of OK......I've heard enought OKC Approach/Fort Worth Center for a lifetime
Finch
GO SOONERS!!!
Can you enlighten me on the Vance pipeline for Primary? I would like to know if it is quite different(besides the fact you fly the tweet)as I have heard in the past. And after your experience, would you recomend joint training with the airfarce? What have you heard from others........this is a question I think many of us future SNA's would like to know! I an OU Midy right now.......but dont plan to come back and fly the friendly skys of OK......I've heard enought OKC Approach/Fort Worth Center for a lifetime
Finch
GO SOONERS!!!
Sir,
Can you enlighten me on the Vance pipeline for Primary? I would like to know if it is quite different(besides the fact you fly the tweet)as I have heard in the past. And after your experience, would you recomend joint training with the airfarce? What have you heard from others........this is a question I think many of us future SNA's would like to know! I an OU Midy right now.......but dont plan to come back and fly the friendly skys of OK......I've heard enought OKC Approach/Fort Worth Center for a lifetime
Finch
GO SOONERS!!!
Can you enlighten me on the Vance pipeline for Primary? I would like to know if it is quite different(besides the fact you fly the tweet)as I have heard in the past. And after your experience, would you recomend joint training with the airfarce? What have you heard from others........this is a question I think many of us future SNA's would like to know! I an OU Midy right now.......but dont plan to come back and fly the friendly skys of OK......I've heard enought OKC Approach/Fort Worth Center for a lifetime
Finch
GO SOONERS!!!
Beau,
1. If you're addressing me as "sir" I'll understand it as a credit to your training, but not necessarily as respect. I'm just another ensign, just trying to figure this stuff out (although that 20% pay raise to JG is getting closer and closer!).
2. Vance-- Frumby (Marine Major & attack pilot) and I have commented on it at length in the "Primary" Section of the forum. But I'll go ahead and give you a quick overview: I probably wouldn't come if you had the choice. Some guys get enamored with the idea that they'll be flying the Tweet, which is a twin-engine, centerline thrust, JET (Otherwise, a 7000lb fuel to noise converter....) I've wasn't very jet-crazy when I showed up here, so that certainly wasn't a motivating factor, but for some guys, it floats their boat.
3. Differences---very, very different. Do read the "Primary" section. Frumby has some good insights from the IP side, there was an AF F-15E pilot who chimed in, and there's my comments. We pretty much were in agreement: much more in the way of mickey mouse, much more restrictive on your time, and no beach. If I haven't scared you, yet, go read the details.
4. Flight school is still hard whether you train with the Navy or the Air Force. My opinion: the Navy tends to steer away from Mickey Mouse more than the AF. My advice: choose for yourself, if you have the ability to choose. Read, get informed. Make your own decisions. I had too many people "help" me make decisions already about my short naval career...
If you would like, I can get you in touch with current Navy students here at Vance who will have their own perspectives, probably a little different than my own, that should give you a broader view. And I hope the Sooners whip Air Force's butt this weekend.
JT
1. If you're addressing me as "sir" I'll understand it as a credit to your training, but not necessarily as respect. I'm just another ensign, just trying to figure this stuff out (although that 20% pay raise to JG is getting closer and closer!).
2. Vance-- Frumby (Marine Major & attack pilot) and I have commented on it at length in the "Primary" Section of the forum. But I'll go ahead and give you a quick overview: I probably wouldn't come if you had the choice. Some guys get enamored with the idea that they'll be flying the Tweet, which is a twin-engine, centerline thrust, JET (Otherwise, a 7000lb fuel to noise converter....) I've wasn't very jet-crazy when I showed up here, so that certainly wasn't a motivating factor, but for some guys, it floats their boat.
3. Differences---very, very different. Do read the "Primary" section. Frumby has some good insights from the IP side, there was an AF F-15E pilot who chimed in, and there's my comments. We pretty much were in agreement: much more in the way of mickey mouse, much more restrictive on your time, and no beach. If I haven't scared you, yet, go read the details.
4. Flight school is still hard whether you train with the Navy or the Air Force. My opinion: the Navy tends to steer away from Mickey Mouse more than the AF. My advice: choose for yourself, if you have the ability to choose. Read, get informed. Make your own decisions. I had too many people "help" me make decisions already about my short naval career...
If you would like, I can get you in touch with current Navy students here at Vance who will have their own perspectives, probably a little different than my own, that should give you a broader view. And I hope the Sooners whip Air Force's butt this weekend.
JT
I agree with JT on this one. I was a 2000 grad from USNA and went down to API and was supposed to go to Whiting. I was informed that to meet the quota for the week I was going to be sent to Vance. I was upset and annoyed and trying everything to get out of the situation, all to no avail. I came here with no flying time and was almost washed out of Tweets. I survived and consider myself alot better for it. Granted it really is a Mickey Mouse program where the show is want they want. They end up taking away alot of your time and it really isnt all that much fun, but I think that is worth it in the long run, at least for me it is. Really the choice is up to you as to where you would prefer to go (because you rarely get what you want). I am about 4 and a half months away from getting my wings up here in Enid and it has been an interesting experience. Many of the guys in my class that have come from the Navy side to Vance feel that they are a bit less prepared, but that is only because they are now entering the Air Force AETC world, which is very different. I don't know if I made a point or not. Long and the short of it....talk to alot of people at all the bases. Don't totally rule out Vance because it is the Air Force and you are in the Navy and want to go to a Navy school. If you want to make it through and get your wings you can do it here or anywhere.
Ian
Edited by - Ian Bass on 09/06/2001 10:13:54
Ian
Edited by - Ian Bass on 09/06/2001 10:13:54
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