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ATP-CTP

Farva01

BKR
pilot
It seems a lot of people are wondering about this class so I thought I would post my experience to answer some questions (or create more). Just started today, so I will post the highlights each day while they are fresh.

I am taking the class through ATP Higher Power in Dallas. They also have classes in Atlanta and Phoenix. I think for right now Dallas is the only one you can use your VA benefits at. They did mention today they are working on opening classes in Las Vegas and Miami as well. The cost is $5000, with $500 put down up front as a deposit and the rest due the morning of the first day of class. Another point mentioned, if you go through the ATP-CTP course, they will take $1500 off the 737 type rating if that is the route desired. I signed up about a month ahead of time and the class was only half full when I called. They said there were eight spots, but there are 13 people in my class right now. Requirements for the class are a commercial multi-engine and instrument and a proof of US citizenship. They tell you that ATP-CTP is a requirement to take the ATP written, but does not prepare you for it. They get you setup with the Sheppard Air Gouge as part of the deal. Overall Ashley was who I communicated with and was very easy to work with.

My class is mainly military. Four Navy, one Marine, two Air Force, one pure civilian, two foreigners (?) and two that were recently hired with GoJets. In addition, we have two FAA guys auditing our course which I will get too.

Day one, first slide is a picture of an airplane with the forces of lift, weight, thrust and drag. I instantly regret not taking the test two years ago.

I can pretty much sum up that the first day consisted of nine hours (you betcha) to say if you are in a stall, lessen your angle of attack. I shit you not. I expected at any moment to the instructors to say our next evolution was in the pool because I was in API again. The media was either the Nat Geo Air disasters shows, or some videos from the eighties with the test pilots from Airbus, Boeing and McDonnell Douglas doing their best larry, moe and curly impression. They did show the Air France 447 and Colgan Air Flight 3407 (the Nat Geo version) mishaps, the latter being the impetus for the course. It was a stark reminder unfortunately that there have been people flying you around that probably aren't qualified to do it.

The interesting part is I chatted with one of the FAA guys. I asked him why are we taking this course as a requirement for the ATP written if the material is not part of the test. He explained that congress essentially forced them implement the course before they had time to overhaul the test. He did mention how they (the FAA) are not happy with the current test (that it is outdated, using 727 numbers etc.) and they have a current bank of approximately 15,000 questions they are going through right now. He said they expect the new test to be in place around OCTOBER time frame. To me that is big news for anyone on the fence. In addition, he said that by 2019, all training curriculum will have more advanced handling characteristics type events in place to teach the basics of flying. Again, pretty sad it has come full circle like that, but I think that is something we have probably taken for granted in the military
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
The type rating discount was something that my class asked about and they quickly Implimented. With th discount it works out to be about 1k out of pocket after GI Bill. Unfortunately the discount only applies for class dates after August 1st.

Also, word at ATP is they're brining an A320 type rating program on line. Life as a SWA feeder school got a little thougher when they stopped requiring the type...

If you want to try to save money and go with a 737 classic type there's another company that's VA approved in Maimi that seems to be a hit with the Air Force tanker community.
 

ChuckM

Well-Known Member
pilot
The ATP-CTP seems to be the way of the future for ATP. So much so, that they stopped offering the ATP practical prep course that paid the bills for so long.

I find it especially odd that they made the move so early since there are still 2.5 profitable months of people trying to wrap up their ATP check ride.
 

Farva01

BKR
pilot
Day two: meterology light, checklists, communications and operations overview. A little better than day one. Showed a little bit of the behind the scenes of how the airlines do business.
Day three: minimum equipment lists, turbine engines, ground operations, and automation overviews. Watched two videos again that we have already seen. They have to fill up the eight hours a day somehow.
So far I can sum it up with people reading powerpoint to me with no slide knowledge.
 

Farva01

BKR
pilot
The ATP-CTP seems to be the way of the future for ATP. So much so, that they stopped offering the ATP practical prep course that paid the bills for so long.

I find it especially odd that they made the move so early since there are still 2.5 profitable months of people trying to wrap up their ATP check ride.

I don't when they can make 5 grand off of schmucks like me who missed the deadline. There are so few options for the ATP-CTP out there right now that its easy money for them. Now that SWA doesn't require a type rating they have to get money from those sims somehow.
 

Farva01

BKR
pilot
Day four in the books. One of the better days.
Pretty much all CRM and safety programs. Instructor had a sense of humor and didn't read off the slides. Kept it moving a little better, or as much as one can when talking about CRM. Come to find out, no one else uses DAMCLAS....who knew. Showed the United 232 crash video today. Good video of guys doing it right vice all the previous screw up videos. At the end of the day we had to take a 30 question test. I think everyone got a 100%.
Most interesting part of the day was an employee from Career Takeoff, an interview prep company who works downstairs, came up and gave some advice on how to get hired while going through the stats for the major airlines. The company is run by a woman who was the head of Southwest hiring for ten years. Some interesting numbers: competitive pilot in command time for hiring is sitting at about 1450 for fighter guys and 1850 for heavy's (and dropping). Based on the amount of retirees of the next six years there is a surplus of around 3000 pilot jobs opening above who is available for hiring. And a twenty year career for a major airline right now will pay between 3.2-3.8 million. Those last numbers are very subjective based on current upgrade and contract pay numbers. For what it is worth, they showed about a six-seven year upgrade at FEDEX, but a guy on property for year at FEDEX right now could have bid for captain.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
Hi Farva. I've been parking in your spot since you have been gone. I might even answer your phone and provide some bad gouge tomorrow.

Just set it up to forward all the calls to the American Airlines training center...
 

Farva01

BKR
pilot
Well I have my official ATP-CTP certificate in hand (actually e-mail) so I can the ATM written.

The last three days have been sims. They use American Airlines and CAE sims, so the times are when available. The first day everyone was in the CRJ sims that are in the same building as all the academics. Primarily went over using the FMS and using the autopilot and flying it to a couple of ILS's. They give some very generic flows and callouts for the sim, but don't go into much depth into them. The first sim was quite eye opening, especially as a single seat guy. I was paired up with an E-2 bubba, and he even mentioned how different everything was in regards to crew coordination. Overall the sim was interesting and was a good primer, although I wish we spent a little more time talking about the flow and comm for taking off and the why's behind each callout.

The second sim I had was in an AA Embraer ERJ-175 full motion sim, which is one of the new requirements. It started on Saturday with a 2000-2200 brief time, 2200-0200 box time and a 0200-0300 debrief. Other than the late sim time, I really enjoyed the second sim. The focus was on low visibility taxi, aborted takeoffs in different runway conditions, terrain avoidance maneuvers, TCAS maneuvers, high altitude stalls and some more ILS flying. This sim felt smoother as the flows, callouts and autopilot made more sense from the first sim. I haven't been in a full motion sim since T-2's and between that and the visuals it was pretty amazing (to even include a ramp guy directing us as we pulled back into the gate). The instructor was an AA pilot and was very thorough and stepped everything very methodically.

The last sim was at CAE in a 737 on Sundat. 1430-1530 brief time, 1730-1930 box time and a 2000 debrief. We briefed with another set of students that had the time before us and then sat around for two hours while they finished up their sim. The purpose of this sim was to look at low altitude stalls both on takeoff and landing, unusual attitudes and icing conditions. We sat down in the sim and with no introduction to anything in the cockpit was set up to recover from a full stall at 400 feet. That didn't go well. He then put me at a seventy degree nose low attitude at 5k'. That didn't end well at all. I was initially pumped to sit a 737 but ended up very frustrated by this sim. No instruction on anything 737 related, just get in and go. I spent the whole time trying to figure out what I was looking at and what needed to happen at each stage since the callouts and flow are different as well as the autopilot setup for each part. Very counterproductive. I would have much preferred to have stayed in the ERJ sim and leverage off what I learned from the second sim.

Overall impression of the course? Highly unimpressed and five grand poorer. The sims were a good experience, but the teaching and learning aspect can be greatly improved while still meeting the FAA requirements. Same goes for the academics. Call me anal or spoiled, but I don't want someone reading off of powerpoint to me for four days or watch the same videos multiple times. The thing I found the most annoying was the lack of a professional setting. Because we had two FAA examiners in the class, two of the head honchos sat in the classes the entire time. Both of their phones went off multiple times during the class so they got up during the middle of a lesson. They would also jump in and add their own comments during some of the classes. The class was interrupted several times by other people to say hello or one sim instructor to touch base with a couple of students about where they were going to meet for the sim (he gave wrong info by the way). The director of operations was condescending multiple times when some of the students asked about sim schedules that were blatantly wrong. The three asshole rule: if three other people think you are an asshole, you are probably the asshole, not them. They mentioned that they will send us a course critique, so I look forward to unloading on that to make a better process.

I am taking the test tomorrow. The sheppard air gouge and test are included in the cost of the course, so there is no reason to not take the test as soon as you are done. Unfortunately there are not really any other options to get the course done. Apparently CAI, or another one was De-certified, but that was just some talk around the water cooler. My bet is in about five years or so, the majors will include the ATP process in their ground school once they start feeling the suck for pilots, much like the regionals are doing now. Until that happens, this is a requirement if you want to head straight to the majors and avoid the purgatory in the regionals, so embrace the suck.

Let me know if you have any questions.
 

Farva01

BKR
pilot
ATM written test is done and passed. It is good until May 2021, so I have some time to knock out the practical.

There were actually a fair number of questions on the exam (7-8) that were not in my Sheppard Air gouge, and three questions were marked incorrect, but I answered them according to the gouge!
 

webmaster

The Grass is Greener!
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
ATM written test is done and passed. It is good until May 2021, so I have some time to knock out the practical.

There were actually a fair number of questions on the exam (7-8) that were not in my Sheppard Air gouge, and three questions were marked incorrect, but I answered them according to the gouge!
Holy shit. After all that you still need a practical?!?! Sigh. What a boondoggle! Great posts by the way! Bet you are glad to have that all done!

Cheers

John
 

Farva01

BKR
pilot
Holy shit. After all that you still need a practical?!?! Sigh. What a boondoggle! Great posts by the way! Bet you are glad to have that all done!

Cheers

John

As I said, I am kicking myself for not taking the written two years ago but it wasn't even on my radar (Navy for life!) I will probably head over to Downtown Aviation early next year time frame. I will be really kicking myself if the ATP does not become a requirement for the majors in the next couple of years.

It is done with written in hand.
 

Farva01

BKR
pilot
Actually looking at the Delta hiring page:
FAA Requirements
  • FAA commercial fixed-wing pilot license with an instrument rating.
  • Current FAA First Class Medical Certificate.
  • Meets ALL minimum FAA ATP requirements including successful completion of the ATP written exam.
It says nothing about having an ATP license...
 
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